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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Author Topic: Fleet Organization  (Read 1347 times)

mitthrawnuruodo

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Fleet Organization
« on: June 20, 2020, 12:35:17 AM »

This game has characters / officers, and it has chain of command - but both are sort of half-baked. These two essential ingredients can be combined and expanded to create a realistic (relatively speaking) and in-depth fleet organization / management system. As seen in games like Scourge of War, Ultimate General, Command Ops etc.

Real world fleets have complex and diverse structures, but for a videogame it can be streamlined to -

Fleets (commanded by the player / admiral)
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Flotilla / Squadron (commanded by officers of rank captain)
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Individual ships (commanded by officers of rank commander)
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fighter wings (commanded by officers of rank lieutenant), science officers, tactical officer, chief of enginneering etc in a ship

This structure can be used to give commands during battle, like in a real world battle as opposed to ad hoc task groups as it is now. Groups can be organized according to specific strengths and weaknesses of their commanders and ships for a specific purposes - adding a whole new layer of strategic depth. Combination of ship composition and captain skills should lead different types of roles, abilities and commands that a squadron can carry out. It can also be a possibility to send out a squadron to go to a nearby base and fetch supplies or reinforcement.

As officers gain rank, they can be promoted to cmdr, then captain, then admiral. Admirals can be sent to command autonomous secondary fleets, or fleets / military of your colonies. Based on their ambition factor, officers may become dissatisfied as they gain levels if you do not promote them accordingly. Promotions will open up new skill trees and abilities that are relevant for that level of command.

More subordinate positions per ship can be added - such as science officers, engineering chief, helmsman etc. The lowest-rank officers (LTs) can be given these positions to modify ship capabilities, and gain experiences until they are eligible to be promoted to commander. The chain of command can be used to automate this for ships or flotillas to reduce micromanagement if necessary, with vacant positions filled by officers promoted (i.e. generated) from the crew of a ship. Planetary commands should also involve officers, like in real life. High Commands should have an admiral ranked officer in charge of it modifying the capability of the fleets in that system. Officers could be put in charge of specific functions of planets such as production or military, like ministers. Recruitment should not really be restricted to mercenaries. Eligible officer candidates should come up from the colonies.

The RTS gamers and Total War players adapted so easily to this kind of increased realistic depth in Ultimate General Civil War. I think the generally smart of group of simulation-minded people that play StarSector would welcome and thoroughly enjoy these kinds of improvements.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 02:08:15 AM by mitthrawnuruodo »
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SCC

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Re: Fleet Organization
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2020, 01:45:21 AM »

The game doesn't actually have a chain of command. When skills were introduced, only the player had them and it was unfair towards the AI (and players who don't like controlling ships themselves), so officers were introduced as a way to give other ships personal skills and NPC fleets were given officer-commanders with both fleetwide and personal skills, like the player. This might change, but probably not in the way you hope for.
I wish there was a way to play the campaign with some strategy elements, if only because it's tedious to go and search for all rare weapons or ships available for sale personally, including switching to a lighter fleet, then switching back. Too bad Alex said this isn't happening.

mitthrawnuruodo

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Re: Fleet Organization
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2020, 01:58:15 AM »

It does have chain of command. It is one of the game's more distinguishing features. You do not control individual ships in battle, except your flagship. You create ad hoc task-groups and give them overall commands, which is interpreted into direct control of the ships by the AI. Officers even have personality, that determines their behavior in battle, which is bloody brilliant.

That is exactly how chain of command works in real battles, albeit with more strategic layers of hierarchy, i.e. fleet organization which the game lacks and what I am suggesting to add.
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Grievous69

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Re: Fleet Organization
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2020, 02:14:47 AM »

It does have chain of command. It is one of the game's more distinguishing features.
How? You can go through the whole campaign and never give a single order, your ships will still do fine. The AI intentionally works like this so you don't have to micro your fleet all the time in every single fight. Calling the player, and then every other AI ship that works individually a ''chain'' is a stretch, it's more like a single line of command.

You create ad hoc task-groups and give them overall commands
I still think of them more as suggestions. I'd say the closest thing to a real command is Direct retreat, but even then the AI pays attention to some things.

So yeah I'm not a huge fan of the whole strategy in combat suggestion but what I'd like to see is different kinds of officers. Let's say there are inexperienced ones who could only pilot frigates and destroyers, but you could have more of them. So it's actually not a waste putting an officer on a frigate. I know the new skill system is trying to deal with this but I really don't like ''here's a buff to some arbitrary stats if you have weaker ships'' thing. It's such a cheap way to balance the diversity of fleets.
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mitthrawnuruodo

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Re: Fleet Organization
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2020, 11:08:31 AM »

All commands are suggestions lol, that's what differentiates it from control. You give command to a task group, which gets translated to the actions individual ships, which gets translated to the actions of individual weapons. There definitely is a chain. And yes, the purpose is to avoid micromanagement like you say. It's the same reason why all real world organizations including military has chain of command.

In any case, this sidebar is not really relevant to fleet structure. So there is no point in discussing this. But I definitely agree with your idea of restricting command of larger ships to higher ranks. Currently I follow that anyway as a rule (e.g. no cruisers+ for an officer below rank 10) just for flavor. It gives more meaning to character progression, in the absence of a proper organizational structure.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 11:27:30 AM by mitthrawnuruodo »
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Yunru

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Re: Fleet Organization
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2020, 01:24:50 PM »

You give command to a task group, which gets translated to the actions individual ships, which gets translated to the actions of individual weapons. There definitely is a chain.
No, you give the same command simultaneously to a bunch of ships; there is no task group, there is no chain.

SCC

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Re: Fleet Organization
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2020, 01:37:05 PM »

It does have chain of command. It is one of the game's more distinguishing features. You do not control individual ships in battle, except your flagship. You create ad hoc task-groups and give them overall commands, which is interpreted into direct control of the ships by the AI. Officers even have personality, that determines their behavior in battle, which is bloody brilliant.

That is exactly how chain of command works in real battles, albeit with more strategic layers of hierarchy, i.e. fleet organization which the game lacks and what I am suggesting to add.
Oh, you meant the battle layer. It works there, I guess. In campaign layer, though, you manage everything personally, which is where it hurts real bad.
I would like to get some way to create groups of ships staying together (formation or not, doesn't matter as much), your way or any other.

Morrokain

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Re: Fleet Organization
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2020, 02:08:36 PM »

It can also be a possibility to send out a squadron to go to a nearby base and fetch supplies or reinforcement.

I'm not sure if this would be in scope or not for the game, but I have always loved the idea of this being possible. Even just sending out scouting parties in a hostile system is a neat idea to me, let alone resupply squadrons. Player faction patrols/stations were a fantastic addition as it is, and this would make it all the sweeter, imo.

Still, it could potentially be pretty complex/time consuming to do this because I would imagine it would require a whole new UI screen to make that work. There is also the problem of how to go about implementing the various squadron break-off commands.

For instance, would you be able to click on any point in the system/hyperspace map? Or would it be more strictly "choose an nearby entity within X distance" and then "choose your command type" - that kind of thing.
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Histidine

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Re: Fleet Organization
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2020, 06:51:45 PM »

It's probably different for players who run frigate/destroyer flotillas and/or crank up the battle size in settings.json, but I've never found that fleets in Starsector combat are big enough to justify more than the existing two layers of command (admiral -> individual ships).

Each of my ships needs to be able to available for and perform tasks as individuals; if they had to do things as static pre-defined pairs or larger groups I'd end up committing too much force for some orders while other parts of the battle area go uncovered. If the implementation happens to mean I can't deploy ships without deploying the full subunit they're in ("this flotilla has three destroyers in it, but I only need one for this job") that'd be even more annoying and reduce my ability to mix-and-match the ships deployed in any particular battle.

If the ships could still be deployed and given orders individually, with squadrons/flotillas merely as an organisational/command-issuing convenience and a way to apply combat bonuses (from its CO having relevant Leadership skills, and/or simply from a "coordination" effect by being in proximity), that would be fine and good.
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Morrokain

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Re: Fleet Organization
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2020, 07:57:16 PM »

No, you give the same command simultaneously to a bunch of ships; there is no task group, there is no chain.

I could be wrong, but I think what mitthrawnuruodo means is that orders given in the combat layer, non-technically, translate to "general orders" that in laymen's terms translate to a chain of command where you let your commanders perform those orders under their own discretion based upon a variable number of factors.

To put this in gaming genre terms, this is distinctly different from, say, an RTS, because specific commands are not guaranteed to operate in the same way in every situation. When you click on a location in an RTS and give the command "move here" the unit or squad moves to that location specifically instead of using their own AI operated judgement on whether that is the best tactical decision. Outliers exist, of course, but those are generally considered "poor AI" when under that genre. (I don't agree with that assessment actually because Starcraft Broodwar's "poor pathing" actually makes for a better overall game imo compared to Starcraft 2's "perfect" pathing if that makes sense.)

In that scenario, the impetus is on you as the overall admiral of the battle to give the most optimal order in that situation and the expectation is that your "commanders/officers" obey the command to the letter to use an old phrase.

In Starsector, it does not work this way. As a notable example, if I give an "Eliminate" command on a carrier that I want removed from the battlespace, the allied commanders/captains of the task force I send to do this will use their own discretion (i.e - wait until fighter replacement is low, retreat if forces confronting them are far superior, etc) to carry out the command. The actual behavior of the task force is dependent upon the battlespace conditions present at the time which simulates a chain of command.

This behavior is also affected by officer personality to a large degree. This creates a "command chain nuance" so to speak. This is also prevalent when assigning escort orders to create a pseudo task group which, if you assign additional orders to the primary "task group leader" with which the escort order revolves around, you can simulate such a tactical move if desired - assuming you have the command points to do so.

If the ships could still be deployed and given orders individually, with squadrons/flotillas merely as an organisational/command-issuing convenience and a way to apply combat bonuses (from its CO having relevant Leadership skills, and/or simply from a "coordination" effect by being in proximity), that would be fine and good.

Yeah this is a good point. There should still be the capability of giving commands to ships individually even when in formation or within a task group as the tactical needs of the situation will often require flexibility in that regard.

As an example, Ashes of the Singularity allows you to create "Armies" that act as one synchronized unit. The downside is that once you create an army you have to disband it to give individual orders - which can lead to unnecessary losses of high value assets in some situations.

This increases the complexity of the feature, though.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 09:29:34 PM by Morrokain »
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mitthrawnuruodo

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Re: Fleet Organization
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2020, 10:47:17 PM »

@Morrokain, that is exactly right and what I am referring to - subordinates interpreting your orders into action at their discretion. instead of you controlling them like a drone. StarSector is one of the few games that has this to some extent, but it is more extensively implemented in games such as Airborne Assault, Command Ops, Take Command and Scourge of War. All of these games, as well as real world military, supplement this via organizational structure.

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There should still be the capability of giving commands to ships individually even when in formation or within a task group as the tactical needs of the situation will often require flexibility in that regard.

Indeed. That is how it is in a real world military. There is nothing stopping, say, a general from giving direct orders to a platoon for a critical mission. Even all the games that I referred to that model army organization and chain of command, allows this. My suggestion assumes this. This is already possible for StarSector, e.g. you can create a taskgroup or give a direct command to a ship. Sort of why I said that all the basic ingredients are there.

To understand why army organization + chain of command would benefit the gameplay, one just needs to consider why they have been integral parts of real world armies for thousands of years.

  • It allows convenient command & control of much larger fleets in battle. Gameplay wise we will get more epic battles without taxing micromanagement.
  • It will add natural progression for characters - from the lowly lieutenant in command of a shuttle to a vice admiral in charge of a carrier group leading their own flagship. Same as in reality. An officer becomes more capable over time, they want a better position with better perks and are able to handle more responsibilities, and it makes sense for their leader to give them more responsibilities, as you want more capable officers in more important roles, and to reduce your own micromanagement.
    • To that end, I would also like to see natural traits (including flaws) that your officers come with or pick up over time. This will create additional strategic consideration when picking an officer for a particular role. And they should come with a dynamic factor like ambition / loyalty, which makes them want to leave if their increasing veterancy is not rewarded with higher positions, or bigger ships.
  • On a macro level, this will also make management of large fleets more convenient, and allow a new layer of strategy. Instead of outfitting each an every ship personally, you could create a "fire support squadron" by putting a cautious captain in charge of it, giving him a budget and the standing role of "fire support" on an organizational level. Then this subordinate AI can continue outfitting his squad whenever he gets access to new equipment in a station / planet or post-battle, or even add new ships and officers to the squad within his budget. In battle, you no longer need to recreate this taskforce on ad hoc basis in every battle, as they already know their role.
  • Through out all this, the player will be free to maintain his own command squad. sort of like an Imperial Guard, or executive branch, of elite ships under his direct command.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 01:14:46 AM by mitthrawnuruodo »
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