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Author Topic: "Exploration" variants  (Read 2030 times)

FooF

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"Exploration" variants
« on: May 25, 2020, 09:07:43 PM »

Random idea:

Currently, I view three ships as somewhat dedicated to exploration: the Shepherd, the Venture, and the Apogee. The Shepherd is a very useful utility ship that not only helps reduce surveying costs but also gives a bump to salvage recovery. The Venture is a hardy (but slow) centerpiece to surveying missions, although Militarized Subsystems is a must. The Apogee is a full-fledged exploration cruiser with decent firepower for the fringe but also a host of built-in hullmods that help with scanning and surveying. It also has a very nice logistics profile with good storage and modest deployment cost.

Along these lines, it would be nice to have more dedicated exploration ships, namely ships that tend to be jack-of-all-trades that I, personally, don't see much use out of but might if they were useful in an exploration role. Exploration fleets could be built that remain swift, combat-capable (though not particularly good) and have bonuses to sensors, surveying, and/or salvaging. Here are my candidates and proposed changes:

Wayfarer

I don't think I've used the Wayfarer since 0.8 when it was introduced as a starting ship. It's touted as being relatively tough and relatively strong in combat but awkward converging arcs has always made it a non-contender for me. It does have the benefit of not being a Civilian vehicle, being fast (Burn 10), and having modest storage capacity.

An Explorer variant (or I could argue, the base ship) would simply add High Resolution Sensors and Surveying Equipment as built-in Hullmods. I would never pilot it but the AI handles them decently and they'd make capable combat ships if part of a larger fleet.

Gemini

I tend to skip the Gemini because I don't like my freighters joining the battle, but like the Mule, the Gemini does pretty well in combat. It's OP-starved but since it tends to hang back and let its fighter wing do the work, it doesn't get into a lot of trouble. Having decent cargo capacity also gives it the ability to support itself (and other exploration vessels) out in the trackless regions of space. Its downside is that it costs 3x more to maintain than a Buffalo or Tarsus (with less storage capacity!) so for hauling duty, it is grossly inefficient.

An Explorer variant would add Surveying Equipment as a built-in hullmod, increase the cargo capacity to 300, and reduce the logistical profile down to 7 supplies/month. Combat performance would suffer a little by way of turning the 2 Medium Ballistic mounts into 2 Small Ballistic, dropping base dissipation to 150 (from 170), and lowering the base capacity down to 2500 (from 2700). It would retain its fighter bay and Medium Missile mount (which is the bulk of its combat prowess) but it would be much more vulnerable due its inability to mount Flak or other defensive weapons.

Venture

But you say, "I thought it was already an exploration ship!" You're right but I think it should also get the Salvage Gantry hullmod. I know with the salvage mechanics this might seem overboard but the Venture ought to be an oversized Shepherd (it practically is already). Would this make Salvage Rigs obsolete? I don't think so. The Venture has 5x the logistical profile for a 5% salvage boost relative to the Salvage Rig. I might even consider hauling a Venture around just for the perks. In all honesty, I don't think I've ever had a Venture in my fleet.

Overall

You can add some of these hullmods to the ships as-is, however, by doing so, you're reducing their combat capability (which wasn't all that high already). Having some Exploration variants that "bake in" these exploration perks would keep some of these marginally useful ships in consideration for longer. But then again, the next patch might change everything so... :D
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Terethall

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Re: "Exploration" variants
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2020, 12:09:02 AM »

Yeah, right now exploration fleets are a bunch of shepherds, drams, apogees (if you can find them), and colossi, with slower ships boosted with militarized subsystems and augmented drive field to get to 10 burn. Plus one or two dedicated combat ships good against derelicts (which the apogee can do well with plasma cannon or HIL, again if you can ever find one). Ventures can also be the combat line but they're so, so much worse than apogees in every way for the exploration role, because derelicts have good PD and fast swarming frigates, and the venture needs militarized subsystems and doesn't have high res sensors. Tach Lance Odyssey is the endgame for exploration fleets in my book.

I think the changes you mention would all make sense. Vanilla definitely could use salvage gantry on a larger hull, and putting it on the venture is a good idea because then it will be 2-2 with the apogee for free logistics hullmods, but keep them different from each other. I also agree that wayfarers and gemini need buffs to see use, but idk if high res sensors on the wayfarer make sense and so many exploration ships have surveying equipment and high res sensors for free. Instead of sensors and surveying equipment, how about solar shielding and insulated engine assembly? Those fit with "tough and strong" and make sense on a freighter, and they are useful for exploring (when you might need to sneak away from a scavenger on the fringe, or sneak into port to sell a big haul of illegal goods found in some ruins or a mining station), and they are unique as free hull mods on a vanilla ship, as far as I am aware, unlike surveying and sensors, which each come free on at least three ships I can think of off the top of my head.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: "Exploration" variants
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2020, 07:15:03 AM »

I found myself more enjoying having separate ships for battle and logistic in my survey armada.

Logistic ships are Colossus, Phaetons, Atlases, Prometheus, and etc. All are militarized subsystems and expanded cargo/auxiliary fuel. Slow, but crude efficient. No guns at any. Simple "going dark" amplified by player's skill makes more protection, than speed or armament. Boring, tho.

Battleships should be effective, cheap in maintenance and able to fight derelicts, small pirates/remnants. Forget of low-tech, they are too hungry. Best is apogee (if you find one), if not - venture, or any cruiser you able to find, like eagle. Surprisingly, Paragon is good at this, due to large OP to fit both weapons and logistic hullmods. For the smaller enemies - pair of tempests with hardened subsystems are right just perfect. If can not find - wolf/lashers are fine too. Phase ships are not good. Carriers - only with drones, because you probably can not afford yourself to have too many crew.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: "Exploration" variants
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2020, 09:44:51 AM »

The venture with salvaging gantry is interesting, but my biggest issue with the venture is the burn speed. It drops you to cruiser burn without giving you cruiser combat capability. Running away is a very important tactical capability that you lose. I think that would need to be improved before I would really consider using it.
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Grievous69

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Re: "Exploration" variants
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2020, 09:48:26 AM »

The venture with salvaging gantry is interesting, but my biggest issue with the venture is the burn speed. It drops you to cruiser burn without giving you cruiser combat capability. Running away is a very important tactical capability that you lose. I think that would need to be improved before I would really consider using it.
Sounds like a good candidate for a built-in hullmod with story points, although true, it's more probable people will use them for better ships.
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FooF

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Re: "Exploration" variants
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2020, 01:50:43 PM »

The venture with salvaging gantry is interesting, but my biggest issue with the venture is the burn speed. It drops you to cruiser burn without giving you cruiser combat capability. Running away is a very important tactical capability that you lose. I think that would need to be improved before I would really consider using it.

I get what you mean and had considered it but the Apogee isn't any faster then a Venture+Militarized Subsystems, though to be fair, it is a better combat ship by quite a bit. An Exploration variant for the Venture might have an increased Burn speed but at what cost? Otherwise, it'd be a straight upgrade and no one would want the standard version.

The Venture epitomizes "slow, clunky junk ship" more than about anything in the game (even more so than Low-Tech warships) so just improving the speed doesn't make a lot of sense. Maybe strip some armor off of it to reduce weight?
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Terethall

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Re: "Exploration" variants
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2020, 01:50:51 PM »

The venture with salvaging gantry is interesting, but my biggest issue with the venture is the burn speed. It drops you to cruiser burn without giving you cruiser combat capability. Running away is a very important tactical capability that you lose. I think that would need to be improved before I would really consider using it.

Militarized Subsystems + Augmented Drive Field brings you back to 10 though.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: "Exploration" variants
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2020, 02:41:48 PM »

The venture with salvaging gantry is interesting, but my biggest issue with the venture is the burn speed. It drops you to cruiser burn without giving you cruiser combat capability. Running away is a very important tactical capability that you lose. I think that would need to be improved before I would really consider using it.

Militarized Subsystems + Augmented Drive Field brings you back to 10 though.
And also costs 39 of your 110 OP, plus it uses up both of your logistics hullmods. It also requires you to have ADF, which is unlikely early on in the campaign when venture is maaaaybe useable.

A buffalo with surveying equipment and a hammerhead have lower upkeep (13 vs 15) and have more cargo capacity and 2/3 of the surveying capacity of a venture and a hammer head is stronger in combat (even before the venture pays the OP tax to have the same burn). You can also go hammerhead + buffalo + shepherd to get the same surveying capacity and some salvaging boost, or a salvage rig for more salvaging and less surveying (both for 16 supplies vs 15 for a venture). Current venture is just bad. I don't really think it needs to be good either, it's ok for there to be bad ships.

I generally put surveying equipment on my freighters and tankers, and I'll take a few salvaging ships early on. I don't really see myself ever taking hybrid ships when I can already get all the storage and campaign utility I need from a few ships so that I can have the rest of my ships be dedicated combat ships. Hybrid ships need to be a lot closer in power to dedicated ships (either combat or logistics) for them to ever be usable IMO. I think 'exploration ships' need to really be combat ships with slightly better exploration/campaign stats (apogee). The idea of a 50/50 hybrid ship or a hauler with a bit of extra combat capability just doesn't work IMO. You end up worse in all categories.
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Megas

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Re: "Exploration" variants
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2020, 02:53:26 PM »

Quote
The idea of a 50/50 hybrid ship or a hauler with a bit of extra combat capability just doesn't work IMO.
They used to be good in earlier releases, but not anymore.  Well, Mule is not too bad, if I rely mostly on what I recover from the enemy.  It is tanky and has a lot of OP to be raised up to something usable in early-game combat if not optimal.  A wall of junk Enforcers and Mules will suffice in early-game fights until I get something better.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: "Exploration" variants
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2020, 03:01:59 PM »

I think officers have also caused that. Officered combat ships concentrate combat power too much for weak ships to deal with. Numerous weak ships just die to a small number of powerful ships.
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SafariJohn

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Re: "Exploration" variants
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2020, 04:33:36 PM »

Fleet size bloat is the main demise of hybrids. If you could only have 5 ships the hybrids would look a lot better.
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