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[TaLaR]

If you try to duel a phase ship without having some dedicated counter strategy (like skimmer), yes, you are down to perfect shield reactions. Good, phase frigates/Harbinger should be scary rather than merely annoying (and maybe more DP expensive as well as rare, except crappy pirate ones). The only reason they aren't scary is AI weakness.

Basically, an even AI Afflictor should not be perceived as just some frigate. It should be at least a cruiser-grade threat, though by finesse rather than brute force.

There are many ways to complicate enemy phase ship's life in a fleet fight though (and I assume AI would be improved at both phase use AND counter if it ever happens).

[Megas]

Part of my strategy to counter phase (Doom stack) fleets is edge-camping then deathballing my entire fleet.  While I normally do this anyway for probable multi-round combat (for quick escapes and PPT reset for the next round), I will do this against phase fleets so they cannot go behind my ships, and to snuff mines as they spawn.

Phase fleets or phase and carrier combo fleets are the most annoying fleets to fight against.  I will pass TT fleets over other major faction's fleets.  (Ordos with Radiants are more dangerous, but at least those drop Sparks and alpha cores for colony spam.)

Basically, an even AI Afflictor should not be perceived as just some frigate. It should be at least a cruiser-grade threat, though by finesse rather than brute force.

Cruiser-grade is too strong if it was meant to be as strong as one class up (destroyer in this case).  Afflictor should be worth 15 or 20 DP if it was meant to be cruiser-grade equivalent.

Hyperion, on the other hand, has fallen flat after various gameplay changes.

[TaLaR]

Cruiser-grade is too strong if it was meant to be as strong as one class up (destroyer in this case).  Afflictor should be worth 15 or 20 DP if it was meant to be cruiser-grade equivalent.

Hyperion, on the other hand, has fallen flat after various gameplay changes.

3xAM Afflictor can one-shot Medusa/Sunder/Shrike and comes close with Hammerhead/Enforcer. 4xAM is too unwieldy to be practical (no approach time reserve to actually bypass shields), but it can one-shot any DE.
So saying that a properly piloted Afflictor is at least Cruiser-grade threat seems adequate. Though this would only apply if it ever got AI overhaul, current AI Afflictor definitely doesn't perform that well.

Hyperion... was it ever as good as current Afflictor? Maybe in pre-CR times, when nibbling at enemies slowly was ok.

[Megas]

Hyperion... was it ever as good as current Afflictor? Maybe in pre-CR times, when nibbling at enemies slowly was ok.

I do not know if Hyperion ever matched current Afflictor, but Afflictor was not always this strong as a playership, not with old phase cloak and active flares system.  (EDIT:  Afflictor was overpowered when it had Quantum Disruptor during 0.8, and it had no reliable counters, not if it hits QD first and destroys the would-be counter with AM blasters, which even the AI did!)  However, Afflictor, along with Tempest (with two Heavy Blasters), could solo a Hegemony System Defense fleet during one of the earlier 0.6 releases.  (Tempest was a bit better at it.)  Hyperion did not have enough PPT to do it.  Afflictor and Tempest could barely do it (with PPT down to critical malfunction level).

However, full skilled Hyperion was stronger during 0.6 (and maybe 0.7) releases, especially when it had flux stats to comfortably fire dual Heavy Blasters twice or maybe three times (it cannot do that now, so Mining Blasters are the best it can do today), and AI had no anti-phase AI.  Also, with stronger missile specialization, it could kill or severely hurt a battleship with two Reapers (which enabled frigate spam dominance during 0.65; Hyperion assassinates enemy commander with all Combat 10 skills, and the forty frigate horde steamrolls everything else before PPT times out or CR decays too much).

Also, objectives were more important, and player wanted something to capture relays on the enemy's side as quickly as possible.  Hyperion was the best at it, with Tempest being a distant second.  (Phase did not get time shift until about 0.7.2.)  Eventually, all endgame fights had objectives, and it was a good idea to capture some at least for enemy AI manipulation.  Today, objectives can be ignored thanks to Electronic Warfare and Coordinated Maneuvers, and that is only in fights against human factions.  Against Ordos (the really important fights for cores and colony spam), objectives do not spawn at all (and I like no objectives).

In pre-CR times, Hyperion was the key to dominance.  Capture points on the enemies side while denying the enemy theirs to boost your DP limit, deploy your fleet to advance as a wall to crush the trickle of everything until it reaches the enemy spawn point.  It was ridiculous watching my ships trying to exit the north side trying to get at enemy Onslaughts before they burn in, and back then, ships did not burn in like rockets as they do today.  Of course, it was still sub-optimal to the ultimate build of auto-resolving system defense fleets and winning (which probably required max Leadership and Technology).

Also, phase-cloak before it gained time shift and phase cooldown (around 0.7.2) was just an imitation Fortress Shield that ghosted through bullets instead of absorbing them.  (I prefer the old ghost shield for Afflictor and Shade because AI fought better with it.)  Afflictor was a super Lasher, brawling with ballistics while flickering cloak and ghosting through bullets, while Shade was a better tank than Monitor by ghosting through everything while denying area with beams, needlers, and EMP.  (Terminator Drone was also a lesser ghost tank.)

[Thaago]

I'm looking forward to the new phase ship AI. To me the best counter is just using interceptors rather than bombers or heavy fighters in a few carriers. Talon + Gladius or even just 2 Talons will ruin an afflictor or harbinger's day.

[intrinsic_parity]

An 8 DP ship should not have the threat level of a cruiser. That is a balance problem, not something that should be doubled down on. Even in AI hands right now, phase ships do a good job of getting behind you and killing you if you're by yourself. I already think of them as much more than a normal ship and already implement changes in strategy and fleet composition to deal with them. We don't need to go further in that direction. The problem isn't that they aren't scary, it's that the best and easiest way to not die to them is to play in a really boring way (i.e. sit in a ball and spam fighters).

It seems from the clip like the changes Alex is making will make them more interested in attacking from the front rather than always trying to backstab. To me it seems like that will benefit the harbinger and doom and hurt the afflicter and shade, but that's honestly fine by me. If they decide to materialize in front of my weapons rather than always trying get behind me, that will make my life much easier a lot of the time. We will have to see exactly how it plays out.

[Megas]

Also, Doom by its nature exploits default AI behavior, and to counter that, player needs to (spend CP and) micromanage the fleet to control their AI urges and prevent them from blundering into landmines or other unfavorable situations.  Similar deal with cowardly ships (especially the phase frigates) that kite and try to lure your ships away so their friends can surround and pick them off.

...To me it seems like that will benefit the harbinger and doom and hurt the afflicter and shade, but that's honestly fine by me. If they decide to materialize in front of my weapons rather than always trying get behind me, that will make my life much easier a lot of the time. We will have to see exactly how it plays out.

AI Afflictor and Shade seem kind of useless.  All they do a flit about and run away until their CR times out and they die.  They are only good as AM Blaster or Reaper glass sword playerships.  AI Harbinger desperately needs the help.  Currently, it is merely a bigger AM Blaster Afflictor flagship that is easier to use.  (I use Harbinger less than Afflictor.)

[TaLaR]

@Megas
Yeah that's a lot of iterations. While pre-CR point-capping Hyperion could probably rival current Afflictor in usefulness, it never was quite as directly destructive.
Though Reaper-spam QD Harbinger still holds the title of ultimate cheese machine.

I'm looking forward to the new phase ship AI. To me the best counter is just using interceptors rather than bombers or heavy fighters in a few carriers. Talon + Gladius or even just 2 Talons will ruin an afflictor or harbinger's day.

It's only true because AI is bad at phase, fighters are not fast enough to seriously restrict optimally piloted Afflictor. At best they make me waste some PPT (longer approach/retreat to vent further). Though this also depends on fighter vs phase ship speed boosting skills, fully boosted Sparks would come closest to stopping no-skills Afflictor.
At the same time all carriers except Mora are easy and high priority targets for Afflictor. Mora is exception because there is no way to bypass it's damage reducing system.

An 8 DP ship should not have the threat level of a cruiser.

My takeaway here is that Afflictor should cost quite a bit more, if it ever gets better AI. As player ship, cost doesn't really matter much as long as it's not too ridiculous. There are only 1 or 2 deployed at the same time anyway.

[Alex]

It seems from the clip like the changes Alex is making will make them more interested in attacking from the front rather than always trying to backstab.

Not quite, just more aggressive in general, depending on... factors*. In the clip, it's attacking from the front because the other ship has an ally and the Harbinger doesn't think trying to attack from the back would be a good idea.

*The factors are tuned to, more or less, have phase ships survive about as long as their non-phase allies.

(And, yeah, I don't have any interest in trying to make it do shield-bypassing etc. It already tries to flank and attack from the back using phase, and that's imo as far as it should go. It's fiddly stuff and there's no reason to do it - any sort of fix, if it was desired, would be better off focusing on making that stuff not possible instead (and I *think* it's harder in the dev version? Not 100% sure.) Obviously this makes phase ships potentially a lot more effective in player hands, but both their costs and their AI are balanced assuming that stuff isn't a factor.)

[Schwartz]

Speaking of phase AI...

What I have seen so far is that a lot of phase ships will pass through their target and line up for a shot from the back, but they never seem to get that perfect 180° angle, the moment passes and they just veer off and write off the attack run. Making that a bit more broad and allowing the whole rear half or rear quarter to work for this would be a big improvement. Maybe that's what you mean with more aggressive. But it should be said.

[TaLaR]

At least to me that part looks like phase frigates always try to attack from death-explosion-safe distance (at moment of unphasing and firing, which isn't always possible. Correct solution I use is to fire while on escape trajectory, so that you are at safe distance only by the time your AM shots hit).
For example if you give them longer ranged LAGs, phase frigates are much more consistent at attacking (but also not nearly as powerful as AM)...

[Alex]

Speaking of phase AI...

What I have seen so far is that a lot of phase ships will pass through their target and line up for a shot from the back, but they never seem to get that perfect 180° angle, the moment passes and they just veer off and write off the attack run. Making that a bit more broad and allowing the whole rear half or rear quarter to work for this would be a big improvement. Maybe that's what you mean with more aggressive. But it should be said.

Not sure if I change anything related to this or not; I think I might have but I'm not super sure. Running 3-4 tests of Afflictor vs Eagle, though - which seems like a case where this could come up often, due to Maneuvering Jets - the Afflictor did not break off an attack run even once. This included a few runs where it shot at shields because it couldn't quite line it up. So... maybe fixed?

At least to me that part looks like phase frigates always try to attack from death-explosion-safe distance (at moment of unphasing and firing, which isn't always possible. Correct solution I use is to fire while on escape trajectory, so that you are at safe distance only by the time your AM shots hit).
For example if you give them longer ranged LAGs, phase frigates are much more consistent at attacking (but also not nearly as powerful as AM)...

Again not 100% sure, but I think I made some improvements there a while ago. Possibly just by shaving down the safety margin. IIRC it might actually be aware of being on an escape trajectory - not actively doing that, but rather only unphasing when the explosion is a danger and that's the case. Could be wrong, though, I'd have to really dig around to be sure.

Regardless, though, it seems consistent about attacking and doesn't get stuck being unable to finish off a near-dead enemy ship. I mean, it does take a bit longer to line up the finishing shot but it's not stuck; maybe just 2x as long to do it as to get a normal shot in, or some such.

[TaLaR]

Escape trajectory thing seems mandatory vs capitals/cruisers to me to leave it as something AI only occasionally considers ( if that's the case) . On top of choosing attack angle, like never try finishing a Conquest by hitting center of it's side, you'd end up too close even while moving away at full speed.

Dlso, does AI discern whether attack pass
may or may not be lethal and take/skip death-explosition precautions accordingly?

[SCC]

When theorycrafting for the tournament, one more ship caught my eye. Condor can in no way meaningfully compete with any other carrier, save for Colossus Mk II (which is a worse carrier, but it has the Ground Support Package). Drover is just 2 DP more expensive, but it will easily fit fighters, weapons and EDC, whereas Condor will have to miss out on its medium missile, its small ballistics or EDC. This is in addition to Drover being faster, tougher and coming with a better ship system (fighters are missiles like better, so I prefer to spamming fighters to spamming missiles). Cruiser carriers are bigger and less fighter bay efficient, but they have the advantages of better fighter coordination, better ship systems, better durability and higher speed (yes, Mora is 45 speed and Condor is 40). The only way Condor can be considered a good choice is when there's no other choice.

[Thaago]

?? 2x broadsword, salamander, 2x vulcan, EDC, and 3 caps = 45 OP.

Condor is a little undertuned I agree though (and Drover is very overtuned).