Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12

Author Topic: Low Tech ship non viablility  (Read 16452 times)

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 23986
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #135 on: May 20, 2020, 09:56:51 AM »

As often is the case, I caution against balancing things by cost and upkeep numbers for a simple reason: if a player plays long enough, both concerns become moot.
Please, please never balance ships around supply drain if you can balance them around flux / OP stats / mounts etc.

(That's literally not an option in cases where one ship is meant to be more powerful than another, in that case you're by definition balancing against cost. This becomes more obvious when you consider the "balance" between, say, a frigate and a capital ship. Obviously other things are a consideration as well, but cost can't not be.)
Logged

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1452
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #136 on: May 20, 2020, 10:26:58 AM »

That's true, but I'm talking about outliers or 'sports cars' if you will. Hyperion is a sports car. Afflictor is a sports car (it just doesn't know it... plz no nerf).

Paragon is already a whopping 60 DP. High Maintenance on this beast will mean I'm never going to use it anymore, which is a pity. High Maintenance is effectively shrinking the fleet pool for every kind of operation that is not a special case - where it'd be worth it no matter what. I would rather see most ships remain economically feasible and usable in regular fleet ops. Paragon has range, flux and fortress shield, but it's not a power outlier at 60 DP. It's simply the biggest, baddest ship in the sector, and its only direct competitor is 1/3rd cheaper!

Talking about giving low tech a hand... reducing that crazy 15 fuel / LY on the Legion and Onslaught would be a measure.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 10:33:18 AM by Schwartz »
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 23986
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #137 on: May 20, 2020, 10:33:56 AM »

That's all fair, yeah. I do think the Paragon would see some solid use at 90 supplies/month, though - it just might be more in line with how good it is. 120 would be... a lot.

I also happen to like the extra fuel use from low-tech ships with burn drive - thematically - so I don't want to touch that.

Another related point, as far as the next release - the higher DP cost of the Paragon will matter more when it affects the magnitude of some fleetwide bonuses. I.E. (numbers made up on the spot) if you get +15% max CR from Crew Training, but having the Paragon pushes you over the limit and you only get +12% or some such - fleetwide! - then, while not a major concern, that's certainly a way a higher-powered ship pays for it. Especially when this is added up over several skills.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #138 on: May 20, 2020, 12:01:05 PM »

Paragon has range, flux and fortress shield, but it's not a power outlier at 60 DP. It's simply the biggest, baddest ship in the sector, and its only direct competitor is 1/3rd cheaper!
I agree with this.  AI does not pilot it much better than other capitals.

I wonder how Radiant will compete once player with that one tech 5 skill unlocks its use as a pet.  Current Radiant is overpowered, around Paragon-tier for only 40 DP.
Logged

Mondaymonkey

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #139 on: May 20, 2020, 12:40:42 PM »

Radical suggestion:

To solve "Low Tech ship non viablility" problem, I suggest remove them from the game entirely.

No ships - no problem.

And now, when I have your attention, lets get serious:

Comrades, problem is not exist! 10 pages of thread for nothing. Low-tech ships does their job well. They are crude, cheap (in price), spendable hummer to smash enemies in a brutal massacre of numerous berserk warriors. That is their job. If you want to anal-dominate the entire sector with no casualties, using unfair natural advantages, and then proud yourself, how awesome you are - that is for High-tech ships. And the midline silently laugh from them both, able massive spam and bites deadly at the same time.

If you feel like low-tech not satisfying your demand - change them for something that match. Or change the demands! Do not try to embroider with hummer!

Do some ships need a slight nerf/buff? Well, yes, off course. But this is like a witch hunt now - let's nerf/buff entire class based on hull pain color! Because I like/dislike their appearance, and want firepower match that.

P.S. about fuel consumption and speed: have anyone ever seen a dozer? That is what low-tech ships are. I've rather add them more hull and armor (or even type-based damage resist), than improve fuel consumption or speed. Same thing to maintenance: have anyone ever tried do repair a dozer? It is much expensive compared to your sedan!
Logged
I dislike human beings... or I just do not know how to cook them well.

Igncom1

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1496
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #140 on: May 20, 2020, 12:59:43 PM »

Yeah cost wise it sucks, but honestly unless you are utterly gasping for money it's not that big of a deal. Low tech isn't overwhelming but it does it's job just fine for the most part.

A paragon is just a mobile space station, with a similar DP cost to boot!
Logged
Sunders are the best ship in the game.

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7173
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #141 on: May 20, 2020, 01:23:29 PM »

I think Dominator/Onslaught/Legion are worth every penny at the moment. I prefer Onslaught to Paragon as a player ship to be honest - the much greater speed lets it have a much bigger impact. I need to try using a Conquest/Odyssey seriously to see if I prefer them.

For AI... I still think I prefer the Onslaught TBH. I can deploy 3 of them for the same points that I could deploy 2 Paragons, and again they are going to be faster. 1 on 1 a Paragon wins, but that doesn't really matter.
Logged

Wyvern

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3784
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #142 on: May 20, 2020, 01:24:51 PM »

Do not try to embroider with hummer!
This forum could use a 'like' button...
Logged
Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

dead_hand

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #143 on: May 20, 2020, 02:38:24 PM »

That's all fair, yeah. I do think the Paragon would see some solid use at 90 supplies/month, though - it just might be more in line with how good it is. 120 would be... a lot.

I also happen to like the extra fuel use from low-tech ships with burn drive - thematically - so I don't want to touch that.

Another related point, as far as the next release - the higher DP cost of the Paragon will matter more when it affects the magnitude of some fleetwide bonuses. I.E. (numbers made up on the spot) if you get +15% max CR from Crew Training, but having the Paragon pushes you over the limit and you only get +12% or some such - fleetwide! - then, while not a major concern, that's certainly a way a higher-powered ship pays for it. Especially when this is added up over several skills.

Afflictors and Phase ships need balancing. Not (just) in terms of power, as a player you can cheese through the whole game with afflictors, but also the annoyance factor, that you need to wait for their CR to expire to be able to kill them. It's annoying enough that it got me to disable phase ships from the game altogether.

Please consider a hullmod that disables phase cloak ability in a circular range. All stations, and radiant class should get this ability innately, and should be available as a hullmod on capitals at least.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 02:40:26 PM by dead_hand »
Logged

Wyvern

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3784
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #144 on: May 20, 2020, 03:17:57 PM »

Afflictors and Phase ships need balancing. Not (just) in terms of power, as a player you can cheese through the whole game with afflictors, but also the annoyance factor, that you need to wait for their CR to expire to be able to kill them.
First, that's not actually true - there are at least three ways to deal with phase ships that don't require waiting out their CR.
Option one is to use a very fast flagship and just chase them until they flux out.  (Easier said than done, I will admit, but it is still doable.)
Option two is to use a Harbinger as your flagship; its ship system can force other phase ships out of phase.
Option three is to use fighters; shielded interceptors are a fairly hard counter to frigate-class phase ships (and in turn get hard-countered by a Doom, but Dooms are slow enough that you don't need anything truly speedy to chase them down.)  Unshielded interceptors are still very effective against phase frigates that aren't the Shade.

Second, see Alex's twitter.
Logged
Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #145 on: May 20, 2020, 03:42:06 PM »

Four Reaper (boosted by Entropy Amplifier) Afflictor is rather cheesy, nearly as much as Harbinger with Typhoon Reapers in 0.9a.  I bring three to five of them to one-shot battlestation sections (via splash damage on the wall) and the occasional large ship.  The same job as one or two Harbingers did in 0.9a.
Logged

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2794
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #146 on: May 20, 2020, 09:05:44 PM »

Afflictors and Phase ships need balancing. Not (just) in terms of power, as a player you can cheese through the whole game with afflictors, but also the annoyance factor, that you need to wait for their CR to expire to be able to kill them.
First, that's not actually true - there are at least three ways to deal with phase ships that don't require waiting out their CR.
Option one is to use a very fast flagship and just chase them until they flux out.  (Easier said than done, I will admit, but it is still doable.)
Option two is to use a Harbinger as your flagship; its ship system can force other phase ships out of phase.
Option three is to use fighters; shielded interceptors are a fairly hard counter to frigate-class phase ships (and in turn get hard-countered by a Doom, but Dooms are slow enough that you don't need anything truly speedy to chase them down.)  Unshielded interceptors are still very effective against phase frigates that aren't the Shade.

1) Player-piloted fast frigates/Medusa/Aurora/Odyssey can do it fairly easily. You need either high avg speed or big burst of mobility.
2) It's not just Harbinger, all phase ships can counter each other. Frigates can easily  out-wait larger opponents (if 3x cloak) or rush the 2 second unphase window (if 4x cloak). Doom needs to place only 1 mine correctly (though corralling the target will likely take more).
4) Long range beams force enemies to enter phase too far to able to effectively reach you ( at least for AI opponents). Several overlapping beam ships will shut down enemy phase hard.

Second, see Alex's twitter.

It seems AI will at least use flux dump + phase accelerated dissipation approach. Good against frigates or targets with weak shields.
Nothing about omni-shield bypass tactics though...
Logged

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #147 on: May 20, 2020, 10:46:03 PM »

The AI does not need to know how to bypass omni shields. Then the player would just be unable to pilot or deploy anything without 360 degree shields or a phase cloak since there's literally nothing you can do to stop a perfectly piloted phase ship from shooting you in the back on your own. I would rather have phase ships removed from the game than have to deal with that.
Logged

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2794
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #148 on: May 20, 2020, 10:56:29 PM »

You can keep shield down and raise it reactively, there is just enough time to react (even better, use skimmer if you have it).
Below capital size bypassing Accelerated omni shield is also way more difficult (too fast, thus likely not doable even for AI taught to do general case).
Also, simplest and most reliable bypass is AI exploit which can be fixed (approach while facing away from target to convince it to drop shield), actually racing against rotating shield is more difficult.
Another key AI problem is raising shield in direction of enemy rather than on intercept course of projectiles (which I obviously fire off-center).

There is a lot that could be done to actively hunt them too, like having escort phase frigates (taught to ruthlessly fish for unphase window vulnerability) or Augmented Gyro TL/PL on multiple ships with overlapping coverage. Even avoiding single non-Gyro TL while bypassing shields takes decent effort, I doubt AI could do more.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 11:06:41 PM by TaLaR »
Logged

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #149 on: May 20, 2020, 11:56:52 PM »

So the player has to keep track of all the enemy phase ships and be ready to perfectly react at all times, otherwise they just lose their flagship/take massive and/or crippling damage? That doesn't sound like an interesting or fun mechanic, especially for players with less mechanical skill, or who haven't learned all the intricacies of combat.

I'm all for the AI getting better at playing against a player controlled phase ship so it isn't so abusable, but I think a lot of care needs to be taken to make sure AI phase ships are not too oppressive to play against. They're already pretty good at going after isolated or separated ships. My usual strategy is just to spam fighters and beams against phase heavy fleets and that works well enough, but ordering my fleet to cower in a ball waiting for fighters to kill phase ships so I can play the game again is not very fun IMO.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12