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Author Topic: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury  (Read 9249 times)

Amoebka

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2020, 11:21:22 AM »

Something that's gonna be really bad vs armor, but efficient enough so it's not a waste shooting at shields.
Pulse laser and IR pulse both fit the description. That's actually the problem - they do no damage to armor so they are effectively anti-shield weapons. Except they have 1.0 and 1.1 flux/damage while dedicated ballistic anti-shield is 0.5 or better.

I think in the next release we are getting hard-flux-on-graviton-beams hullmod, but I'm not sure it's going to be enough.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 11:22:59 AM by Amoebka »
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Grievous69

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2020, 11:51:01 AM »

Yea but you can't really bust shields with those as they have poor range and by the time you start smacking with your ineffecient weapons you're already gonna have flux issues due to incoming fire. And the ships that have to use them usually haven't got the greatest flux, theoretically you could use an Aurora for shield busting but it has better weapons to wield.

The hard flux beam hullmod really grabed my attention when I saw it first but in reality I don't see it working with 1000 range beams. It costs OP, halves the beam range but doesn't give you more speed. So it's only ever gonna be useful on speedy ships that have burst beams (Phase Lance). Let's say you want a Tempest with two Gravitons and that hullmod. At 500 range I could've given it better weapons in the first place, and save on OP. Only ships that are decent for beam spam are midline ships, so maybe there we'll see some crazy builds. Like an SO Eagle with 3 Gravitons (plus that hullmod) and Chainguns in the front.
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Igncom1

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2020, 12:14:53 PM »

Also why exactly do pirates have access to every missile weapon? Even the really complicated systems that they probably shouldn't own by default. Like the luddites have to make do with makeshift torpedoes but the pirates can field MLRS kinetic warhead launchers and MIRV capital killer systems like it's nothing. Seems a little unbelievable for them to possess such weapons by default.
Because them spamming Locusts would be boring. Unguided munitions are out of the question, Atlas Mk II can't use them easily enough.

I'd be fine with that. Or a bigger diversity of missile weapons. Anything but the pirates possessing the best missiles as everyone else. The Locust included as they ARE arguably the best missile. Just seems strange that the luddite terrorists get stuck with built in torpedoes and the pirates get the good stuff. Ludditism not included of course as they aren't likely to WANT to use the best stuff as so much tech break physics or uses built-in AI's.

And the idea of atlas armed with duel hammer torpedoes, however in vain, is hilarious and pirate-like to me.
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Megas

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2020, 12:27:42 PM »

I think in the next release we are getting hard-flux-on-graviton-beams hullmod, but I'm not sure it's going to be enough.
The problem is the player is spending more OP to get a weapon that is probably worse or no better than Light Mortar that costs 2 OP!  500 range (or a little more with Advanced Optics and MORE OP SPENT), and player gets a weapon with DPS on par or worse than Light Mortar, for far more OP spent.

This is like trying to make Mining Laser useful PD, which requires both IPDAI and Advanced Turret Gyros.  Quite an investment for something player can get out-of-the-box with better beam PD for no investment and maybe lower OP cost.

Probably the good thing about the hard flux beam mod is Tachyon Lance no longer needs companion weapons to put hard flux on shields to make lance unblockable, but that comes at the price of losing long-range sniping and some OP.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 12:31:07 PM by Megas »
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Amoebka

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2020, 12:33:12 PM »

Light Mortar is a HE weapon. You probably meant Light Autocannon.

Light Autocannon has the same DPS as Graviton Beam (100 kinetic), better range (600 vs 500), worse accuracy (very poor vs perfect!), has no special effect on missiles and fighters, and worse flux effficiency (1.1 vs 0.75).

So with high-tech you are paying extra OP and an extra hullmod to get a medium weapon that is at best a sidegrade to a weak small ballistic. That's the high-tech design philosophy (tm) for you.  :D
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Igncom1

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2020, 12:35:30 PM »

Did gravitons get nerfed when I wasn't looking because otherwise they are 1000 range last I checked?

They always seemed just fine to me, never got why people hated them so much. Beams aren't flash-y sure, but they are also cheap as anything.
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Megas

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2020, 12:37:15 PM »

Light Mortar is a HE weapon. You probably meant Light Autocannon.

Light Autocannon has the same DPS as Graviton Beam (100 kinetic), better range (600 vs 500), worse accuracy (very poor vs perfect!), has no special effect on missiles and fighters, and worse flux effficiency (1.1 vs 0.75).

So with high-tech you are paying extra OP and an extra hullmod to get a medium weapon that is at best a sidegrade to a weak small ballistic. That's the high-tech design philosophy (tm) for you.  :D
No, I mean Light Mortar!  You cannot mount Graviton in small energy mounts.

However, you have a point about Light Autocannon.  Graviton Beam takes a medium mount and 9 OP.  Using beam mod to emulate Light Autocannon, that takes a small mount, sounds like a raw deal.  If I use high-tech ships, I need those medium mounts to do damage, not tickle the enemy with weaksauce.

Quote
Did gravitons get nerfed when I wasn't looking because otherwise they are 1000 range last I checked?
Range is normally 1000, but the hard flux beam mod will cut range by half.

Something that's gonna be really bad vs armor, but efficient enough so it's not a waste shooting at shields.
Pulse laser and IR pulse both fit the description. That's actually the problem - they do no damage to armor so they are effectively anti-shield weapons. Except they have 1.0 and 1.1 flux/damage while dedicated ballistic anti-shield is 0.5 or better.
Agreed so very much.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 12:40:05 PM by Megas »
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pairedeciseaux

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2020, 04:19:41 PM »

Looking at this ship more closely, it appears to have two empty small side mounts. I need to ask WHY Alex keeps making so many ships with these pretty much useless side mounts. Now both of the new ships have, and several of the new ships from the last batch of ships, have these nearly useless mounts...

Maybe I don't understand the complain here, but... IMO those are anything but useless.

Small side weapon slots (with appropriate arc) are a requirement for any well rounded loadout, especially on larger ships. On many ships they let you have side defense against missiles and fighters (and annoyingly agile frigates or phase ships ... that threatens your sides). Paragon, Onslaught, Legion, Astral, Conquest, Aurora, Dominator, Eagle, Gryphon, Falcon, Mora and Heron, all have their sides protected by small side turrets for this purpose. On some ships they can also be part of the main weapon system for broadside-type piloting - see Odyssey and Shrike.

And since this ship has a 180 degree omni shield, they are even MORE worthless!

Do you mean "no need for side defence weapon because shield can protect the side of the ship"? Sure, leaving some small slots empty is a compromise one can make in order to save OPs. I do that with the 2 small rear side slots of a Medusa. But on most ships I would never sacrifice neither side nor rear defence.

On the other hand sometimes I leave both right and left large weapon slots empty on an Onslaught (or put medium guns). And sometimes I leave the right side large weapon slot empty on an Odyssey. Go figure.  :P

It is good to have options, right?

All in all, this ship looks to be another Shrike, yet even worse somehow

A larger Shrike coming in the next Starsector release is exiting news from my perspective! Although reading the forum it seems pretty obvious Shrike-type gameplay does not appeal to every player.   ;)

I'm curious about base flux dissipation (I guess around 500-600) and capacity, medium turrets arc (will a Fury need to face its target?), armor (Falcon-level?), how AI-friendly is will be, and of course how agile it will be.
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SafariJohn

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2020, 04:48:09 PM »

Looking at this ship more closely, it appears to have two empty small side mounts. I need to ask WHY Alex keeps making so many ships with these pretty much useless side mounts. Now both of the new ships have, and several of the new ships from the last batch of ships, have these nearly useless mounts...

Maybe I don't understand the complain here, but... IMO those are anything but useless.

The rear turrets presumably cover the sides as well, making the side turrets redundant. The wide omni shield on the Fury makes the side turrets even less useful since it can cover the front and sides at the same time.

The "so many ships" Midnight refers to are the Scarab, Atlas Mk.II, the new midline ship, and, to a lesser degree, the Centurion (when first added), the Colossi variants, and the Starliner. These ships all have side turrets that could be deleted without much - if any - effect on the ships' loadouts.
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Megas

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2020, 05:01:34 PM »

Sometimes, player would like to fill mounts with guns but cannot afford the OP or dissipation to do so, making such mounts useless if the most effective loadout(s) consistently leave them empty.  Worst offenders are carriers.  I would like to put guns on them but they are better suited buying good fighters and sending them off before hiding in the back.  (Carriers as gunships with Mining Pods or Talons for fighters are suboptimal.)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 05:03:51 PM by Megas »
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Scorpixel

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2020, 08:44:02 PM »

Isolated small kinetic/energy mounts are supposedly for pd coverage, however fighters (along the fleet's frontal barrage) are infinitely more effective at it than those will ever be while still retaining offensive power.

Each pd is 3-5 points that could have went in vents/caps, conclusion: if it can't point in the main direction, it's a useless bump on the hull.

PS: Shielded fighters could not care less in the world when a single small pd of any kind fires at them.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 08:47:41 PM by Scorpixel »
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Schwartz

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2020, 08:46:00 PM »

Looks like a cool ship, as did Shrike. But for me personally, I don't use ships that are meant to be weaker, faster and disposable. I use ships and loadouts that are meant to survive and win flux duels.

If these 'high tech skirmishers' get the kind of AI that will make them a real nuisance on the battlefield, I may consider using them. So far, the defining point of fighting vs. Shrike is that it dies fast.
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Goumindong

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2020, 09:04:10 PM »

Small energy turrets and hardpoints on ships with larger mounts are kind of useless. Medium energy turrets and pardooints on ships with larger mounts are also kind of useless. There are a few exceptions but in general energy weapons are like HE weapons. They just get better as they get bigger because the single hit damage matters as much as the DPS/OP.

Additionally small energys PD is a bit  expensive. (Regular old PD lasers are OK though they could go down to 2 or 3OP). Though these (and larger options) are getting a buff.

Small energy could maybe use a short range kinetic option or just a highly efficient damage source. Graviton beams could maybe be small energy weapons as it is.
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Thaago

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2020, 10:15:15 PM »

Small kinetics pointing sideways, like on the Dominator and Onslaught, are fantastic for killing fighters because vulcans and dlmgs offer high dps for minimal flux cost. They will also catch those sneaky sidewinding harpoons/atropos or direct fire missiles coming in from odd angles. Energy has no equivalent guns though. Their PD is low dps long ranged: it needs to be able to track targets from far out and keep firing.

IR Pulse is good anti-fighter, though it really needs either high CR, IPDAI, or Gunnery Implants for the target tracking to be good enough to consistently hit fighters.

Isolated small kinetic/energy mounts are supposedly for pd coverage, however fighters (along the fleet's frontal barrage) are infinitely more effective at it than those will ever be while still retaining offensive power.

Each pd is 3-5 points that could have went in vents/caps, conclusion: if it can't point in the main direction, it's a useless bump on the hull.

PS: Shielded fighters could not care less in the world when a single small pd of any kind fires at them.

Pretty strong disagree from me: fighters are great in general, but incredibly inconsistent PD. Enemy fighters love to swarm ships on their sides and rear and actually stay out of front arcs if they can, and bomber strikes will come in from the side often enough. For shielded fighters, dlmgs or IPDAI railguns will tear them up: in some ways they suddenly become worse than a non-shielded fighter, because kinetic damage overloads them quickly enough that they can't fire at all.
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Grievous69

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Re: The new high tech light cruiser - Fury
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2020, 11:27:40 PM »

Since the discussion has moved a bit to the side mounts, I'll just add what Alex said to me in another thread when I asked him the same:
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they're adding 10 valuable ordnance points to the ship's OP budget
This was about the new heavy midline cruiser which also has 2 side turrets. So with that I don't really hate them, but I'd still like them to either point front a bit or to the rear.

Especially with what Thaago said since both of these ships have energy turrets. The cheapest option that actually does something is not very cheap and doesn't even work great without hullmods or skills. If Mining laser wasn't complete garbage I'd probably put them in those slots.
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