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Author Topic: Reputation hit after colony defense fixes  (Read 2166 times)

FinetalPies

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Reputation hit after colony defense fixes
« on: April 05, 2020, 01:10:46 PM »

I've formatted this kind of lengthily, just to really make sure we're all on the same page, but you can just skip to the 3rd part for my suggestions.
If you're in full tl;dr mode, I've bolded what is the simplest and most crucial fix.

1. What happens:
    After establishing a colony, rival factions will occasionally send expeditions to disrupt colony operations. If the attacker is repelled, through direct player action, colony defenses, or even random events (ie: losing to pirates in hyperspace), the player will receive a -5 penalty to relations with the aggressor faction.

2. Why it's a problem (and why it's not):
   

    Tooltips like this imply the player will not suffer a reputation penalty for fighting the enemy fleet, which, while technically accurate (since the reputation penalty comes from the fleet losing for any reason), comes as a surprise to the player, who feels penalized without warning. The reputation hit also feels like the player has done something wrong while, as far as my own testing has confirmed, the only way to avoid the reputation loss is if the attack is successful, making the only player choice available to be to deliberately downgrade their defenses and suffer the disruption, which I'm pretty sure just isn't worth it. One is left with a sort of lose/lose dilemma and a feeling of unfairness.

    Now, it's not a problem because it punishes the player for having a colony, I think to a degree the player should be pressured and challenged after establishing a colony. Rising tensions with other factions is a promising part of that. So, for me at least, I don't think simply removing the reputation penalty is an appropriate solution.

3. Suggestions:
    The simplest fix is just to update tooltip information so that the player is fully informed of what will happen. This prioritizes the options the player has regarding preventing the expedition from leaving in the first place. I'd be satisfied with this.

    For a more in depth solution, I think the way the player is informed of a hostile expedition could be quite flavourfully updated. Instead of being warned of (what feels like) an impending unprovoked attack (through what is presumed to be your intelligence network but is sort of just player omniscience) the faction (or a specific officer from that faction) could send you a threatening demanding message. Currently, you can prevent an attack from occurring by spending reputation or money, and those same options would be available in this dialogue approach. This reframes and personalizes the hostility, so it feels less random, and this comes with a few additional options and benefits:

 - If the problem is an Open Port, you could promise to change that policy in order to receive a discount on the money or reputation spent, with consequences for breaking that promise.

 - Different factions could be made even more distinct from one another by the tone and demands of their messages.

 - The rising tension of the messages could better convey the acceleration of hostilities, and narratively justify why deterring fleet repeatedly costs more and more.

 - Threats could include things other than hostile fleets; including trade embargoes, bounties (increasing pirate activity against you) and anti-player propaganda campaigns (damaging relations across multiple factions)

 - Demands could expanded too, like fulfilling specific missions (providing goods, bounties, surveys, etc). I like this because currently some players already seek out missions to make up for the -5 reputation loss, so offering a mission to prevent that loss kind of leads to the same actions from the player, but feels more intuitive and less gamified. (Would definitely feel frustrating if it occurred to much, but that's an issue present in the current build too)

 - The current system of a completely unsanctioned sneak attack could occur, with the warning message sent by an ally, possibly in the form of an anonymous tip; Such as someone from within the faction if your general reputation with them is in the green, or could be from nearby factions you're on good terms with (particularly Independents, who are kind of everywhere and easy to befriend). This attack wouldn't come with the reputation penalty, which I said I didn't like as a solution but I do like it if it's not the only or most common method. The presence of directly addressed messages suddenly makes their absence more interesting.
   I'd also enjoy a real possibility that the attack is executed fully without warning, because of bad luck and/or a lack of friendlies in the area. It'd be pretty bad to get disrupted without warning, so an addition to information on Free Port status and AI usage would include a blurb aboot "some factions don't like this and may launch attacks, even in secret" would be important. The threat of this would, psychologically, do more to deter players away from these very mechanically beneficial things and also to prioritize defenses. Though in practice these secret attacks wouldn't be likely to be particularly strong, and be repelled by decent defenses. To which, the addition of a message "While you were away, your defenders repelled an enemy ambush" would probably be very fun to hear like, "Good job folks, I knew your upkeep costs were worth it"

 - It could convincingly lead into a more full scale campaign against the (usually very powerful) player. Including implying alliances between other factions to bring you down a peg.

 - The individuals sending you messages could also become more memorable and distinct, so that your individual relationship has a bit more sway (Along the lines of classic StarSector knockoff Mount & Blade (a joke)) but going in depth on individual reputations is definitely a whole 'nother subject.

4. Conclusion
    If you can tell by how easy it was for me to get carried away there, I think this warning message framework has a lot of potential to be expanded in a lot of directions. The first three of that list are like, genuine recommendations, beyond that is just optional hypotheticals, since I don't know how 4X-y the game will actually end up being. (I haven't actually tried the Nexerelin mod yet, I'll get around to it)

    Anyways thanks for reading and considering my thoughts, I look forward to any input and in particular thanks to the dev for a game I'm still very much enjoying.
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FinetalPies

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Re: Reputation hit after colony defense fixes
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2020, 01:16:56 PM »

Oh whoops I forgot to thank the people who replied to my Reddit thread on this subject. I appreciated those suggestions and even worked some into my post here.
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Megas

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Re: Reputation hit after colony defense fixes
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2020, 04:19:11 PM »

You get penalized if the enemy fails to break your colony themselves.  One time, I abandoned a colony and still took -5 rep after the fleet arrived in the system.

Getting (more) expeditions just for Free Port when no other Free Port (even Indie or Pirate core worlds) gets attacked.  This is stupid!  Either ALL Free Ports (Tri-Tachyon, Indie, whoever) get attacked periodically by Hegemony or Church, or none do.  Anything else smacks of gang up on the human or forcing an artificial combat quota.  The current expedition spam is an incentive to kill all of the core worlds to make them stop.

While Free Port is nice for money, that is not the reason I use Free Port.  The primary reasons for me to use Free Port are:
1) Population growth - I want big colonies now, and I do not want to wait too many in-game years to grow big.  The bonus is huge.
2) Meet demand for mining - my miners are hungry and Hybrasil eventually will not produce enough once my worlds grow too big.
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FinetalPies

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Re: Reputation hit after colony defense fixes
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2020, 03:29:30 PM »

Yeah there's a lot to be said over the inconsistencies of what the AI is allowed to do to the player's colonies but that the player can't do to the AI. Or even the AI do to each other. At least a bit more consistency would be nice. Though it'll never be completely symmetric because the player has the potential to become the strongest faction by far, where the AI seem at least somewhat satisfied to live in equilibrium (Which I'm happy with)
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Reputation hit after colony defense fixes
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2020, 04:54:37 PM »

I feel like it would be much more interesting if instead of having endless periodic expeditions for certain things, you had one big discrete event when you passed certain thresholds. Something like a series of increasingly large expeditions followed by declaring war but at the end of it all, you should be able to make peace (or win) and not have endless expeditions sent after you. Factions should give up at some point and not mindlessly throw endless armies at you. I much prefer a big short term challenge that I can plan for to grinding endless waves of relatively easy fights.

In my mind, the player would be allowed to initially avoid fighting/war by either keeping their production under a threshold (or keeping freeport off or whatever) or by paying or doing missions or whatever obligations you want to impose on the player (could be faction specific i.e. tt wants a bunch of AI cores while heg wants you to kill some dissident... I mean pirates). These payments could be made endlessly, but the faction would send no expeditions as long as the conditions are met. If the player chooses not to submit, the factions could maybe send a few underhanded expeditions or do some of the subtle/escalatory things mentioned by the OP, but after some short time, they should openly declare war. Then the player can make peace (by winning some number of battles or through diplomatic means (story points :D) or huge bribes like giving away colonies), and after that the player is left alone.

Also to the OP: the current message you get when defeating an expeditionary fleet is weird because in previous versions of the game, you would have an additional rep penalty if you a fought a fleet yourself (as opposed to letting you defenses handle it), and the message is there to inform the player that they can fight without additional penalty. It's not really necessary anymore since people aren't expecting it to be the way it was anymore. This has come up in threads before and I believe it will be changed in the next release.

Also to the OP: Alex (the dev) has said he doesn't want the game to become a 4x, and he wants the factions to stay somewhat fixed. Presumably this leaves some room for big scripted events, but I don't think he wants to have the factions behaving like players (i.e. diplomacy, cycles of war and peace, expanding/conquering new colonies and stuff). Hopefully he will chime in if I am misrepresenting his position.
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Megas

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Re: Reputation hit after colony defense fixes
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2020, 06:17:17 PM »

In my mind, the player would be allowed to initially avoid fighting/war by either keeping their production under a threshold (or keeping freeport off or whatever) or by paying or doing missions or whatever obligations you want to impose on the player (could be faction specific i.e. tt wants a bunch of AI cores while heg wants you to kill some dissident... I mean pirates). These payments could be made endlessly, but the faction would send no expeditions as long as the conditions are met. If the player chooses not to submit, the factions could maybe send a few underhanded expeditions or do some of the subtle/escalatory things mentioned by the OP, but after some short time, they should openly declare war. Then the player can make peace (by winning some number of battles or through diplomatic means (story points ) or huge bribes like giving away colonies), and after that the player is left alone.
Or just kill 'em all.  For example, Hegemony, knock it off or I will wipe Chicomoztoc off the map one way or another.  If they are still angry after that, or keep sending inspectors or others, then total annihilation and purge from the Sector.
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FooF

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Re: Reputation hit after colony defense fixes
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2020, 06:44:49 PM »

I feel like it would be much more interesting if instead of having endless periodic expeditions for certain things, you had one big discrete event when you passed certain thresholds. Something like a series of increasingly large expeditions followed by declaring war but at the end of it all, you should be able to make peace (or win) and not have endless expeditions sent after you. Factions should give up at some point and not mindlessly throw endless armies at you. I much prefer a big short term challenge that I can plan for to grinding endless waves of relatively easy fights.

In my mind, the player would be allowed to initially avoid fighting/war by either keeping their production under a threshold (or keeping freeport off or whatever) or by paying or doing missions or whatever obligations you want to impose on the player (could be faction specific i.e. tt wants a bunch of AI cores while heg wants you to kill some dissident... I mean pirates). These payments could be made endlessly, but the faction would send no expeditions as long as the conditions are met. If the player chooses not to submit, the factions could maybe send a few underhanded expeditions or do some of the subtle/escalatory things mentioned by the OP, but after some short time, they should openly declare war. Then the player can make peace (by winning some number of battles or through diplomatic means (story points :D) or huge bribes like giving away colonies), and after that the player is left alone.

Also to the OP: the current message you get when defeating an expeditionary fleet is weird because in previous versions of the game, you would have an additional rep penalty if you a fought a fleet yourself (as opposed to letting you defenses handle it), and the message is there to inform the player that they can fight without additional penalty. It's not really necessary anymore since people aren't expecting it to be the way it was anymore. This has come up in threads before and I believe it will be changed in the next release.

Also to the OP: Alex (the dev) has said he doesn't want the game to become a 4x, and he wants the factions to stay somewhat fixed. Presumably this leaves some room for big scripted events, but I don't think he wants to have the factions behaving like players (i.e. diplomacy, cycles of war and peace, expanding/conquering new colonies and stuff). Hopefully he will chime in if I am misrepresenting his position.

I'd prefer a system like this to the current version. BUT...as far as I'm concerned, this kind of "problem" is only due to not having an endgame at the moment. While endless expeditions begins to break my suspension of disbelief, I also know that without them, the game would completely stall out after the last "major incursions/war" scenario.

I think the factions formally declaring war on you would still be better than what we have. At least in such a scenario you wouldn't be penalized for taking the fight to them. If the Hegemony declares war, than all bets are off when it comes to me firebombing their colonies and it won't make every other faction hate me. It's a window of opportunity where you can take your high-end fleets and smash them against their defense fleets and battlestations with no "outside" repercussions.  If you do vie for peace, then yes, I think there would be an understanding that you're not worth dealing with anymore and that would be the end of their incursions on your systems.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Reputation hit after colony defense fixes
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2020, 06:51:49 PM »

In my mind, the player would be allowed to initially avoid fighting/war by either keeping their production under a threshold (or keeping freeport off or whatever) or by paying or doing missions or whatever obligations you want to impose on the player (could be faction specific i.e. tt wants a bunch of AI cores while heg wants you to kill some dissident... I mean pirates). These payments could be made endlessly, but the faction would send no expeditions as long as the conditions are met. If the player chooses not to submit, the factions could maybe send a few underhanded expeditions or do some of the subtle/escalatory things mentioned by the OP, but after some short time, they should openly declare war. Then the player can make peace (by winning some number of battles or through diplomatic means (story points ) or huge bribes like giving away colonies), and after that the player is left alone.
Or just kill 'em all.  For example, Hegemony, knock it off or I will wipe Chicomoztoc off the map one way or another.  If they are still angry after that, or keep sending inspectors or others, then total annihilation and purge from the Sector.
Yes, presumably factions would leave you alone if you demonstrate are a big enough threat. The threshold for 'big enough' could be different for different factions. The idea is that they would no longer send inspections/expeditions after they declare war, they would just send invasions try to destroy the cores or your colonies as a whole, and once you stop them enough times/do enough damage, they would give up. There should be some long term penalty for war though, maybe a permanent reduction in trade, or maybe they don't help you when 5 remnant nexuses appear in your systems :).
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sector_terror

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Re: Reputation hit after colony defense fixes
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2020, 08:35:25 AM »

I feel like it would be much more interesting if instead of having endless periodic expeditions for certain things, you had one big discrete event when you passed certain thresholds. Something like a series of increasingly large expeditions followed by declaring war but at the end of it all, you should be able to make peace (or win) and not have endless expeditions sent after you. Factions should give up at some point and not mindlessly throw endless armies at you. I much prefer a big short term challenge that I can plan for to grinding endless waves of relatively easy fights.

In my mind, the player would be allowed to initially avoid fighting/war by either keeping their production under a threshold (or keeping freeport off or whatever) or by paying or doing missions or whatever obligations you want to impose on the player (could be faction specific i.e. tt wants a bunch of AI cores while heg wants you to kill some dissident... I mean pirates). These payments could be made endlessly, but the faction would send no expeditions as long as the conditions are met. If the player chooses not to submit, the factions could maybe send a few underhanded expeditions or do some of the subtle/escalatory things mentioned by the OP, but after some short time, they should openly declare war. Then the player can make peace (by winning some number of battles or through diplomatic means (story points :D) or huge bribes like giving away colonies), and after that the player is left alone.

Also to the OP: the current message you get when defeating an expeditionary fleet is weird because in previous versions of the game, you would have an additional rep penalty if you a fought a fleet yourself (as opposed to letting you defenses handle it), and the message is there to inform the player that they can fight without additional penalty. It's not really necessary anymore since people aren't expecting it to be the way it was anymore. This has come up in threads before and I believe it will be changed in the next release.

Also to the OP: Alex (the dev) has said he doesn't want the game to become a 4x, and he wants the factions to stay somewhat fixed. Presumably this leaves some room for big scripted events, but I don't think he wants to have the factions behaving like players (i.e. diplomacy, cycles of war and peace, expanding/conquering new colonies and stuff). Hopefully he will chime in if I am misrepresenting his position.

I'd prefer a system like this to the current version. BUT...as far as I'm concerned, this kind of "problem" is only due to not having an endgame at the moment. While endless expeditions begins to break my suspension of disbelief, I also know that without them, the game would completely stall out after the last "major incursions/war" scenario.

I think the factions formally declaring war on you would still be better than what we have. At least in such a scenario you wouldn't be penalized for taking the fight to them. If the Hegemony declares war, than all bets are off when it comes to me firebombing their colonies and it won't make every other faction hate me. It's a window of opportunity where you can take your high-end fleets and smash them against their defense fleets and battlestations with no "outside" repercussions.  If you do vie for peace, then yes, I think there would be an understanding that you're not worth dealing with anymore and that would be the end of their incursions on your systems.

I'll join in to give my support on this. Having hostilities that break out from time to time in the same way the faction do is an excellent idea. you could still have penalties for raiding a colony enough to damage it permanently(keeping out the 'kill the hedge and let AI cores rule crap) but still let you actually fight with the factions freely and profit from it. Plus it give you sometimes to do late game that doesn't end up fighting your reputation gain.
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