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Author Topic: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT  (Read 1958 times)

bobucles

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2020, 08:07:59 AM »

Quote
With the current endgame battles, all that reducing PPT for large ships will do is force more multi-round combat, which is worse than what we have now
PPT does very little to change the reasoning behind multi round combat. If PPT is short, players do a bunch of short battles to conquer a large fleet. If PPT is long, players do a bunch of long battles to conquer a colossal fleet. Changing PPT does not fundamentally change the meta, unless skipping sleep counts as a meta. The major difference for PPT is how many hours you CAN invest into conquering a larger sized fleet, with more PPT allowing an even larger discrepancy between forces.

So no, increasing PPT won't fix multi round combat. Players will just pick bigger fights and run into the exact same problems, except bigger. A solution for multi round combat has to be discovered in a different way.

FooF

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2020, 01:23:13 PM »

I was about to say, "Didn't I just suggest this in the fleet composition thread?"

Suggestion:

As long as a Frigate is "near" (range to be determined) an allied ship of equal or greater size than an opposing ship "nearby", its PPT rate does not decay. Additional consideration could be made if this is a skill-based mechanism rather than inherent.

You're approach is obviously more nuanced and better thought-out than mere proximity and I like the extra caveats. Along with carrier rules, you'd also need phase ship rules so that their PPT does not get extended. Their inability to stay on the field is a major balancing point.

Personally, I'd rather have any PPT-altering mechanics locked behind skills. It would mean that it is the exception to the rule and having longer-lasting Frigates/Destroyers, etc. is more of a perk than anything. It would give those "playing small" to have more parity without diminishing those "playing big."

Also, I assume we're only talking about Frigates and maybe Destroyers? Cruisers don't need extra PPT even if they're hanging around Capitals.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2020, 01:48:12 PM »

So no, increasing PPT won't fix multi round combat. Players will just pick bigger fights and run into the exact same problems, except bigger. A solution for multi round combat has to be discovered in a different way.

I think in some sense, the issue here is that the only way to make a fight more difficult is to add more ships to the enemy, which makes the fight take longer (whether that be a few long rounds of combat or many short rounds). The solution has got to be other ways of making fights more difficult. Maybe stronger enemy officers, or limiting the players access to officers more or big fleet buffs for the enemies, or boss ships. A lot of these ideas introduce asymmetries into the fight by giving the enemy some advantage over the player, but I think that will ultimately be necessary to challenge the player without just making the battles into long slogs. I think a lot of those sorts of ideas lend themselves more to story type missions as well (bosses and stuff) so maybe that can be done through content rather than mechanics.
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Plantissue

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2020, 06:45:58 AM »

Depends what you mean by multiround combat. Quick thought experiment of doubling all ship PPT would half the amount of rounds needed. There's a limit to how big a fight you can pick and even then it is a choice. In general you don't need more than 1 round at 500 battlesize or 2 rounds at 300 battlesize to fight the biggest expedition fleets. You have to deliberately seek to fight 3+ of the max size remnant ordos fleets to get any bigger fights. And it seems that next version wil have smaller fleets.

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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2020, 09:24:11 AM »

The problem is really that if the player reaches a point where they can beat one wave of the enemy fleet at full DP disadvantage comfortably, then they can beat an arbitrary number of waves and ppt is the only limiting factor. The remnants (particularly the radiant) are stronger than the players ships so that the player can't win at full DP disadvantage and thus can't battle an arbitrary number of fleets at once. Instead they can fight them separately or bring enough reinforcements to even out the DP. This is an example of the asymmetric enemies I was talking about. If the player has access to the same tech as the AI, the player will optimize their fleet more and be able to win at DP disadvantage, so the AI needs to be given some asymmetric advantage (radiants) to allow for a challenge without a slog.

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Alex

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2020, 10:04:58 AM »

So this looks interesting! Some good points have been brought up about exceptions, though - carriers, the player ship, and so on. (Say, SO ships kitted out for escort duty?) I still think this might work, actually, with tweaks for all the special cases - or perhaps some elements of it might be useful. The thing is, peak time degradation - and when it happens - is hidden enough as a mechanic that I don't want to make it more complicated.

In the next release, some things should combine to - hopefully - make this less of an issue. Smaller (but more elite) enemy fleets on the high end, and some skills that also factor in. For example, there's a piloted-ship skill that gives (in addition to other bonuses) a flat bonus to peak time, which benefits small ships more. And there's another skill that boosts the peak time of some frigates specifically. So, all in all - I think this is an interesting idea, and I'll keep it mind. But, I think it makes sense to see exactly how things shape up in the next release.
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Thaago

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2020, 12:03:29 PM »

Thanks! I think the points about exceptions and that it would be a "magic" rule are valid, so a direct implementation wouldn't work: its starting to look like there would need to be more exceptions than would be viable.

I think the core of the idea that people are in broad agreement over is that the player should have some control over PPT in order to keep small ships useful, but in a way that stops endless chasing/kiting.

A quick question: will the AI have access to the skills that boost frigate peak time and still allow them full mobility? I feel like this could be an issue where things done to the player are very different than things the player can do, in terms of fun gameplay. (Am I sore about teleporting remnant frigates having destroyer level peak time and killing me? Yes, yes I am :D)
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Alex

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2020, 12:19:00 PM »

A quick question: will the AI have access to the skills that boost frigate peak time and still allow them full mobility? I feel like this could be an issue where things done to the player are very different than things the player can do, in terms of fun gameplay. (Am I sore about teleporting remnant frigates having destroyer level peak time and killing me? Yes, yes I am :D)

IIRC the main skill that does this, the AI *could* have access to if a faction was configured to let fleet commanders have it, but no factions are. It's less of an issue there, regardless, since it'll get extremely aggressive once it's down to a few frigates or thereabouts and/or is outnumbered (there's some new code here), so e.g. those Remnant frigates won't be nearly as annoying, trying to avoid a full player deployment for a long time for no good practical reason.

Edit: the piloted-ship +peak time skill, the AI will have access to, but it's not a huge deal for the same reasons, and it's a lower bonus (right now, 60 seconds).
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Thaago

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2020, 12:21:51 PM »

Cool, good to know! I think I speak for everyone when I say that I'm really looking forward to the next version.
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bobucles

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2020, 05:11:36 AM »

Ooh, flat time boosts. That will definitely help the small guys out. I wonder if there'll be some kind of phase ship specialization as well? Phase ships are certainly not for everyone.

If there are special PPT burn rules, it'd be better to keep them as simple as possible. One of the biggest advantages that small ships have is their ability to roam around and capture map features. What if a PPT burn rule was built around that? Say if one side has a simple superiority of capture points, then their own PPT burns slower. The side with more light ships can likely keep this bonus. If they capture all the points, then the enemy PPT burns faster. It would definitely punish fleets that can't command any of the battle space at all. I dunno how effective it would be at suppressing an overwhelmed fleet.

It seems a typical strategy for surviving overwhelming odds is to camp out in the corner. Corner camping will basically surrender all map objectives to the enemy (you can always center your fleet around at least ONE objective), so it'd make sense to place extra rewards and penalties around that kind of event. If the enemy gets some type of all capture bonus it'd pressure the player, and if the player gets some kind of penalty they'd be better served in a more honest battle.

Plantissue

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #25 on: February 29, 2020, 07:03:42 AM »

The problem is really that if the player reaches a point where they can beat one wave of the enemy fleet at full DP disadvantage comfortably, then they can beat an arbitrary number of waves and ppt is the only limiting factor. The remnants (particularly the radiant) are stronger than the players ships so that the player can't win at full DP disadvantage and thus can't battle an arbitrary number of fleets at once. Instead they can fight them separately or bring enough reinforcements to even out the DP. This is an example of the asymmetric enemies I was talking about. If the player has access to the same tech as the AI, the player will optimize their fleet more and be able to win at DP disadvantage, so the AI needs to be given some asymmetric advantage (radiants) to allow for a challenge without a slog.
I was thinking about that. Taking into account of an arbitrary number of waves and ppt as the only limiting factor what is the maximum amount of DP a minimal fleet can reasonably defeat at once? Usually when fighting against large fleets with a smaller fleet, a point is reached where you have sustained enough damage and the DP ration starts changing. As you've been fighting at a 1.5 ratio disadvantage successfully the entire time, a change in ratio causes an escalating success, though armour and hull damage sustained previously slightly mitigates this.

Taking a notional example of fighting 10 minutes at a 300 battlesize with a 120 DP fleet can plough through 400 DP in that time wherein the fleet the retreats to reset its PPT timer and loses 15 CR and can successfully fight from 100% CR to 40% giving 4 battles, gives 1600 DP. Then lets say a further 200 when the ratio tipping point is reached and fight till CR depletion. So 1800 DP. About 6 of the largest remnant fleets. or 2.5 of the largest bounty fleets. Problem with remnant fleets is that the Radiant is particularily DP efficient but everything is just a rough estimate anyways that varies upon countless variables.


Greatly increased number officers may change the ability to fight at a ratio disadvantage though.
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Morrokain

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #26 on: February 29, 2020, 07:39:45 PM »

I like the ideas here. This discussion is interesting though I can't add much to it.

A potential solution is to change how carriers with escort orders behave: their fighters could be locked to flying around the vicinity of the escorted ship and the carrier itself, with no ability to go on extended attack runs. I think thats reasonably intuitive, and also means that players can actually vector fighters to the defense of ships in trouble, which is currently an unreliable pain. In that scenario, I think extended PPT for the escorting carrier would be ok. As a bonus, that kind of behavior is already coded for "Support" fighters, so I don't think this modification would require a whole new AI to be written. The new behavior is: If a Carrier is an escort, its fighters are switched to "Support" AI, and their only allowed target is the escortee ship (or the carrier itself when on recall mode).

... I would really like that behavior on its own merits actually, even without being a solution to this particular problem.

Hmm this is really interesting to me. I like the extra tactical control it would allow for the player as far as AI ships go. Though:

Escort orders work in a funny way. If you tell a ship to stop escorting another ship, that formerly escorted ship will have other ships assigned to it automatically as an escort order remains on that formerly escorted ship. So you have to remove the escort order attached to that ship.

I have a feeling it will be hard for the AI to make use of this ability intelligently. It may even end up wasting all its command points, though I am uncertain whether it even does use command points in the first place.

This is a good counter-point to consider. Still, I like the idea if it ends up being viable to do.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2020, 06:18:34 AM »

Same on the carrier escort stuff. Maybe all that's needed is a "Fighter Escort" order as a defensive equivalent to "Fighter Strike" (with the usual automatic assignment of ships to the order).
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Goumindong

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Re: Escort Coordination: Rule for Small Ship PPT
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2020, 10:10:32 AM »

I like this idea and hope there is a way to make it or a similar mechanic readable
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