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Author Topic: Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship  (Read 3418 times)

FooF

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Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship
« on: February 23, 2020, 07:32:42 PM »

This is just a test-bed for what a hypothetical Capital-sized phase ship could be.

Caveat: Many moons ago, I believe Alex has said that phase ships are balanced as if they were one size larger than actual. I.e. a phase frigate costs about as much to deploy/maintain as a Destroyer. This means the Doom is being treated as a Capital balance-wise. It is the most expensive Cruiser to field and is just underneath the 40 supplies/mo. an Onslaught or Conquest requires. The Doom is its own breed of ship (especially with Mine Strike) and has pretty interesting loadout potential but it is not, in fact, a capital ship.

So, what would a Capital-grade phase ship look like if it were balanced against Vanilla?

1.) The ship system would have to be unique.

Most of the phase ships have very interesting ship systems, from short-bursed disabling features, increased damage, to the aforementioned mine strike. A phase capital would likely be very slow, so a mobility system may be in order here.

However, thinking outside the box, I could imagine the power generator on a capital phase ship to be sufficient to phase enemy ships into the same phase plane, allowing the capital to fire onboard weapons even while phased. Of course, this would be a massive flux draw but while the enemy ship is phased, it is a sitting duck. The phase capital could cherry-pick targets, bring them into phase, hit them relatively hard and come out to vent (considering it will likely be nearly flux-locked). The size of the enemy ship would matter but only in the duration of the phase effect (~8/6/5/4 seconds). Enemy ships could still maneuver but couldn't fire.

Alternatively, the ship system could be a temporary phase shield. Where a phase capital would likely spend a lot of its flux getting into position due to slow speed, engagement and disengagement will be difficult. The phase shield puts up a 360 degree shield of zero-point energy that blocks all incoming fire for ~3 seconds. Instead of phasing in or out, the phase capital can just tank the damage.

A phase boost could also be used. Since capitals tend to have a lot more Peak Performance Time, staying phased will hurt a capital-sized ship less than smaller ships (which is part of balancing the phase mechanic and keeping them balanced). For a ship system, the capital can double (?) time dilation and thus, move twice as fast under phase relative to other ships. This of course, also doubles the relative drain on its Peak Performance. This would act as both a speed boost and a balancing measure.

2.) Mounts

Phase ships tend to be listed under high-tech so a phase capital will likely use a combination of Energy and Universal mounts. I would imagine it would have 1-2 Large Energy and potentially a Large Universal. With the hit-and-run tactics of Phase ships, Large Energy mounts like Plasma Cannons and Tachyon Lances would be devastating. A Large Universal would also make mounting a Large Ballistic or Missile quite interesting when used in conjunction.

Medium and Small mounts would also likely be Energy/Universal, however, I would imagine a Phase Capital to be somewhat vulnerable on the sides/rear and under-gunned in general compared to a ship of the line.

3.) Flux profile

Where a phase capital would not be lacking is flux capacity and dissipation. I would imagine it would be on par with the Paragon, if not a little more impressive (say, 1500 dissipation and 27500 capacity). It would be able to handle its weapon profile, especially in short-burst style engagements.

4.) Armor/Hull

The Doom actually has some impressive armor and the phase capital would likely be in the 1500 armor rating range. It will take hits to armor but it won't be an easy nut to crack. Depending on the ship system, this number may go up or down. The hull rating might be in the 15000 range: not up there with a battleship but still significant. Without a shield, phase ships do tend to fall pretty quickly to focused fire and since this will be a slow behemoth, I don't think phasing out will save it like its smaller brethren.

5.) Cost

Here's where it gets tricky. I would imagine that a phase capital cost in the same ballpark as the Paragon in terms of DP and maintenance, however its CR cost to deploy would be even higher (25%). It's battlefield ability and presence would have to be similar to the Paragon and balanced as such, though it would be much different because it's not a straight-up brawler. I wouldn't balance a phase capital "a size larger" because we have no precedent for that but at the top end of capitals, such as the Paragon, would be a good fit.

Bottom Line:

I think the ship system would ultimately determine whether or not a phase capital would be "worth it." You can balance out the rest of its flux profile, mounts, etc. but the ship system will make it either terrifying or underwhelming. For something that is arguably as strong as a Paragon, a phase capital needs to be deadly and require a different strategy to defeat than other capitals. The other piece of this is playing as this hypothetical ship and playing against it. If the ship system can't be utilized well by the AI, or if it's extremely annoying to play against (i.e. getting pulled into phase space as the player may get frustrating), it won't be very popular.

What ideas do you have and what would you expect out of a phase capital?
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Grievous69

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Re: Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2020, 12:47:00 AM »

Damn just a few days ago I saw a tweet from Alex with a gif of a ship behind some cloud/smoke and I almost got hyped thinking it was a new phase ship (possibly capital) but it was just a mere Apogee. As for your points I agree with most of them. The idea of a ''1v1 me in phase space'' seems really interesting but kinda boring if they can't shoot. It would just be target practice then. What if targeted ships could fire all their weapons at 0.5x speed and they could still move BUT couldn't use their shields. It would be a nice counter to annoying high tech ships while you'll be still risking damage from them. I suppose you already thought of this but it would make sense for targeted ships to be unable to interact with the rest of the battle. Missiles go right through and all that fancy phase things. That ability doesn't really need inverted scaling as you mentioned because a frigate would be dead in a second, while capitals may still live after. Best just to put a flat time amount to avoid confusion.

And absolutely it would need to be at least 55 or something supplies. I think it could actually work seeing how Doom would be killed by fighters if it weren't for mines, and a capital would be threatened by mere frigates since it's slow (oh hey look accidental indirect frigate buff).
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TaLaR

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Re: Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2020, 02:35:57 AM »

Phase cloak itself has negative size scaling - it gets worse as ship grows larger and slower. It would be almost useless to a capital (and doesn't do that much for Doom either), so like Doom a phase capital would have to be a ship completely defined by it's (overpowered) ship system. Or built-in unique hullmods/weapons.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 02:37:38 AM by TaLaR »
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bobucles

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Re: Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2020, 04:47:51 AM »

I don't like the idea of increasing time acceleration even more. Crawling across the map at 30 speed x 6 would be painful on the user end. Dragging other ships into phase space sounds crazy fun, but it's no good if they can't duke it out somehow. Simply dragging a ship into p space would likely mess up its shields and potentially mess up its flux. That's more than strong enough on its own.
It would be almost useless to a capital (and doesn't do that much for Doom either),
Phase cloak seems plenty effective in a DOOM's hands. The speed boost is good enough to close the distance against most ships, while the time acceleration gives superior flux power and weapon DPS against everything. Yes the Doom struggles to perform back attacks against most ships, but it has the up front power to punch through so whatever.

Harmful Mechanic

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Re: Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2020, 07:01:50 AM »

You're all missing the obvious solution; Make a normal, shielded, high-tech battlecruiser... with a phase cloak as a ship system.

You could adjust this special phase cloak two ways; one, put a time limit on it, so you can't stay 'under' for long periods of time, and two, make it boost the mobility of the ship in the bargain. That gives you fast, stealthy, strike-focused, lurk-and-reposition gameplay, but rearranged so that it fits the combat profile of a capital ship.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 07:46:24 PM by Harmful Mechanic »
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Plantissue

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Re: Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2020, 09:30:42 AM »

Any hypothetical capital hullsized phase ship that matches the general trends will become the best player ship. Including reduced time and distance travelled when phased. I can't forsee any realistic alternative that will solve this problem.
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2020, 10:13:31 AM »

Discussion of capital phase ships keeps stalling out on questions of specific ship properties. The only way to move forward is for someone to actually make something. Then the argument can proceed from at least one working example as a data point.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2022, 07:46:08 PM by Harmful Mechanic »
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Igncom1

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Re: Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2020, 10:37:42 AM »

I suppose one thing I want to talk about is the general purpose of a capital ship and how that might best utilize a phase cloak system in a fleet battle. In my mind, generally, a capital ship is what a fleet is built around for symmetrical conflicts. I have some capitals and they have some capitals, both with escorts and supporting ships.

A Hegemony fleet focuses on big gun capital ships with heavy armour and strong ballistic fire-power, supported by battle carrier capitals equipped with heavy fighters. They are a very direct opponent and don't utilize phase ships, as far as I know, under normal circumstances. A fleet like this would have no need for a phase capital as it doesn't fit their doctrine.

Looking outwards towards factions that would or could be more suited to anything other then a straight up capital brawl would be factions such as the PL, TT, and SD's Lion Guard.

From what I know, which may be rather inaccurate, the PL focus more on large number of destroyers and carriers in support of one or two battle-cruisers. I am unfamiliar with the amount of phase ships in their fleets but I don't recall it being very many. But as a force that relies more on fighter/bomber swarms over a direct confrontation they could be a contender for a phase capital of some kind. Perhaps a supportive command craft or fleet distraction machine in comparison to the conquest battlecruiers heavy fire-power but weaker defences.

The TT which I am less familiar with seem to utilize fleets of heavy carriers supported by phase ships. They also have paragons which seem doctrinally backwards, even with the lore of them being more of a vanity piece then a necessary invention. I avoid fighting them due to their fleets and bounties often possessing just the right mix of high end craft that makes fighting them early almost impossible. They also have high tech battlecruisers but I don't think they use them. They could be a contender for a phase battleship to lead phase only fleets around, or to be centred around, and would probably make more doctrinal sense then a battleship.

I know very little about the fleets of the SD, normal or lions guard, as there is rarely a point in fighting them. They seem like a mix of all the factions? Possibly like the hegemony doctrinally but with extra carriers? Utilizing a much wider selection of blueprints then any faction for their normal and elite fleets. They could have a phase capable capital ship to lead their elites into battle, compared to the regular conquest battlecruisers I think I recall seeing them possess?

That's what I think about it. It doesn't have to be the standard phase torpedo bomber ambusher type, it could play a supporting or defensive role to supplement more aggressive smaller phase ships.
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Megas

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Re: Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2020, 11:50:34 AM »

Since Alex said that phase ships are intended to be tuned to be about as powerful as a conventional ship one size larger, having a phase capital would be (in theory) like having a super-capital from various mods.  Doom is about on par with a capital.  Does Alex want super-capitals in the game?  (I am sure some people would like super-capitals in the game, and escalate from there.)
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FooF

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Re: Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2020, 02:59:48 PM »

The idea of a ''1v1 me in phase space'' seems really interesting but kinda boring if they can't shoot. It would just be target practice then. What if targeted ships could fire all their weapons at 0.5x speed and they could still move BUT couldn't use their shields. It would be a nice counter to annoying high tech ships while you'll be still risking damage from them. I suppose you already thought of this but it would make sense for targeted ships to be unable to interact with the rest of the battle. Missiles go right through and all that fancy phase things. That ability doesn't really need inverted scaling as you mentioned because a frigate would be dead in a second, while capitals may still live after. Best just to put a flat time amount to avoid confusion.

Right. I think it would be more FUN! if the target could fire back and, yes, a phased targeted ship would be in p-space and be unable to interact with the rest of the battle. If it was a flat time amount, I'd imagine players would save their charges for larger ships and not "waste" them on frigates and destroyers. I could be wrong, however. If it was a flat amount of time and charges regenerated at a respectable rate, you wouldn't have to worry about that but then the system runs the risk of being OP or annoying.

@Megas

I mentioned your point right at the beginning (under "Caveat"). You're right, it can't be a super-capital without setting a precedent so I tried to balance my approach around Paragon-level power.
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Plantissue

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Re: Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2020, 07:35:33 AM »

Discussion of capital phase ships keeps stalling out on questions of specific ship properties. The only way to move forward is for someone to actually make something, so I'm doing that. Then the argument can proceed from at least one working example as a data point.
Well, there's just not that much to say in the first place. It's not like we are brainstorming to create actual capital phase ship and it sounds like you aren't open to ideas either. Not sure why this is in the suggestions thread to be honest. I'm suprised that seemlingly no-one has  modded a capital phase ship, but I guess you already intended to create one.

Just taking the capital ships we have now and giving them phase cloak instead of shields we can see they would be excellent playerships. The two battlecruisers are relatively fast and tough with large weapons, so they can do amazing strike damage by unphasing vent and rephasing with near inpunity. Even the Onslaught can burn drive away before its phase flux runs out. Not sure how phase Legion or phase Astral would work out with fighter replacements, but being able to run away from just about anything that can possibly harm you with impunity is just powerful beyond words for carriers. The only one that might have problems is the Paragon as its immense shields and ship system is useless.
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Daynen

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Re: Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2020, 01:55:53 PM »

Well...the Archean order overhaul mod actually has a capital ship with a phase cloak called the Tyrant and it is ABSOLUTELY NUTS.  I wouldn't call it "balanced against vanilla" but then again the mod overhauls everything so it's a bit of a moot point in context.  The damn thing is terrifying.  I have soloed capital fleets with that thing.  I'm not joking.

I DO find the idea of "phase space" being a separate battlefield layer a fascinating concept though.  Having a portion of your fleet drop into phase space to engage their cloakers would be intriguing indeed.
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Morrokain

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Re: Hypothetical Capital Phase-Ship
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2020, 03:49:52 PM »

I'll just pop on here to say, yes, a phase capital will be very powerful in the player's hands likely even in vanilla.

I had to give mine the phase jumper ship system to make the AI scary with it- which only exacerbates the issue of players optimizing its combat capability. To somewhat counter-balance this I plan on locking its acquisition behind stronger rarity gates, but I'm not sure if this would be a good idea for vanilla. I'm no balance expert on vanilla standards, though, so take that as you will.

For the fun factor, it's pretty cool to have one available imo. I will say that.

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