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[Mondaymonkey]

Hi there!

1. Really sorry about bad english. Hope it is understandable.
2. Sorry if already suggested. Lurked a bit, and didn't found any similar.

Yeah, iv`e found that article and understand that it is a well known problem, which is soon to be reworked. But i doubt proposal solution will help.

My suggestion possibly could solve problem more effectively and easier. It consist of a two parts:

A) Fleet is limited of 30 units. Instead of allowing additional units over an upkeep penalty, maybe it is better to allow having more than one small ship as a single unit? The group of same-fitted frigates combined into single battlewing, acting as a single combat unit, shearing orders and tactics just like a fighters already do, just like frigates should do. And yes, an officer, who command that unit contribute to all ships in it, off course less effective than to a single ship. If you ask about numbers, i guess allowing 2-3(depending on shiphull strength, as some are stronger than another) destroyers and 4-8 frigates would be OK. Cruiser should be alone just like capitals, IMO.

B) There are obvious inconsistency between real combat strength of smaller ships and DP needed. Lets consider as an example wolf and conquest. If you have 40 DP to spend, you can choose 1 conquest or 8 wolfs (5 DP each). Obviously, conquest is stronger, no one will choose wolfs in that situation. Why don`t just change this according to point A? No, the single wolf is still 5 DP, but a group of two is already 9 DP. Group of three - 12, four - 15, five - 18, maximal group of six wolfs is 20 DP or so. That means, you can use two groups of six wolfs, spending 40 DP, and a twelve wolfs are more comparable to conquest, especially if all twelve are under officer`s command. Numbers should be adjusted, no more than concept yet.

The only question to be asked: "What will stop frigate spam, not to create opposite problem?" Well, first off all maintenance, as group of 6 wolfs might be 20 DP on the battlefield, but still 6*5=30 recovery cost in supplies. Plus frigates dies more often than capitals, which makes frigatespam fleet weaker after each battle.

Of course there are lot of issues and problems to be solved:
-What to do if one frigates from group was disabled and recovered with its own unique D-mods? How it can be returned to group?
-Where player will get those amount of identical spendable material if not having colony with heavy industry?
-How can player control that group if personally control one of the ships in group? Opposite problem: AI is not able to control group as a single unit, making that tactics less effective it should be.
-Something i can not imagine.

Still, i think idea is promising as it can be easy adjusted and balanced by simply changing that values where needed.

[KCR]

I really like the idea of creating "wings" with your ships. For officers commanding multiple ships, i believe there was a topic about it? Still, it's a very nice idea. Totally agree with the first point at all. I'll even propose even further. Let it be solo capitals as you've mentioned (because capitals are, well, capitals, pretty self-explanatory), but let cruiser be in wing. One (and only one) cruiser as an officer flagship, 2 destroyers and a bunch of frigates. Or no cruiser and just mix of destr/frigates. Or just a little frigate swarm under the command of a single officer. Also, i think that if an officer flagship gets destroyed, the whole wing gets demoralized and breaks up, creating a mess on the battlefield. Should be an interesting thing to see. Also, maybe add a feature to assign some roles to the wing? Like, at the start of the battle you deploy your squad and let's say assault squad, that needs to capture and hold the objective. After that's done you can retreat the assault squad and deploy the "defender" squad that will defend that point, or you can deploy "killer" squad to hunt down some targets, etc. I think, if this get's implemented some day, it will be a really nice feature and ofc, raise the importance of a frigates.
The second point also makes sense, but, ye, it still requires some (if not to say a lot of) work with the numbers.

[Plantissue]

How would idea A and B work when suffering ship losses? The numbers used for DP aren't granular enough to support a smooth curve. Though I suppse if a Wolf was worth 40 DP and a conquest was worth 400, and battlesize is multipled by 10 times that could work.

There's also the oddity of different numbers of differently sized groups causing different DP totals. For example, in your example, three groups of four Wolfs would be 45 DP and four groups of three Wolfs will be 48 DP.

That kind of idea works well for wargames, but with points limited cap in a battlefield, it feels somewhat off. Also maintenance isn't that good of an idea for game balance as the ship will fall either way into worth or not worth having in the fleet.

[Mondaymonkey]

How would idea A and B work when suffering ship losses? The numbers used for DP aren't granular enough to support a smooth curve.

Did I said it is perfect? Concept and nothing more. All the values used is nothing more than example of system, not ready version. And yes, battle casualties are OK, you can reinforce your partial wings by adding same-typed frigates from reserve right in a middle of battle. Loosing a dozen of frigates during a large battle is fine, as it is summary non more than two ship slots in your fleet, because non-full wings could be easy recombined into lesser number of full wings. If you loose a dozen of frigates in a current system it would probably be a load of last save, as it is loss of 40% of a ship slots you have, resulting you will remain ether capspam from the rest of your fleet or a half-strength of what you had before. I suggest, loosing a large amount of small ships in battle is FUN.

There's also the oddity of different numbers of differently sized groups causing different DP totals. For example, in your example, three groups of four Wolfs would be 45 DP and four groups of three Wolfs will be 48 DP.

That is a goal to having larger wings, where each ship will cost less DP than in a smaller packs. But you are 100% right it is kinda weird. Probably should be reconsidered into something better.

One (and only one) cruiser as an officer flagship, 2 destroyers and a bunch of frigates.

That is completely another system. Probably even better than mine. Let said, cruiser have four "escort" slots. Player or computer can add there four frigates or two destroyers with <by guess> 80% reduction with DP cost at a price they can not do any other orders than "escort" their cruiser. Officer on a flag ship contribute to his escort. Escort is direct retreating if cruiser is destroyed.

capitals, pretty self-explanatory

Paragon, conquest, onslaught and legion are. All another... Well, less sure.


P.S. There IS a topic about wings. How can i miss it? Guilty as charged. Thread can be closed.