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Author Topic: More tiers on bounties  (Read 3526 times)

Megas

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2020, 05:07:30 PM »

High bounties are such that unless I have a ridiculously overpowered fleet to utterly crush them for the "Flawless Victory! FATALITY!", I do not want to fight them because losing a capital means all profit and then some will be eaten to replace the ship.  But, by the time I have an overpowered fleet, I already have plenty of income from colonies, and I can ignore bounties and have a bit more time doing what I want to do (exploring, raiding for blueprints, robbing Ordos for Sparks and cores) before yet another zombie pirate outbreak requires my immediate intervention to stop.

Bounties upgrade to max power before my fleet does.  By the time I do reach max power, the game is effectively won, unless I attempt the mad quest to colonize every planet.

Basically, too high risk, not enough reward.

P.S.  As for other times, the spike from 100k to 150k is kind of large.  My fleet is probably still mostly a bunch of junk destroyers taken from pirates while I fight Moras, Falcons, Eagles in better ship than my ships.  Do not want to fight those either.  By the time I do, they upgrade to capitals.  Making ships cost more in 0.9.1a makes it easy to fall behind the kill scaling.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 05:10:02 PM by Megas »
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Alex

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2020, 05:11:57 PM »

Bounty FP increases nonlinearly at high tiers, but wouldn't you also say it's true that a large bounty which allow capitals (or indeed enforce them, due to hitting the fleet cap) can use its FP more efficiently, in the sense that an enemy Paragon will be much harder for the player to deal with than three Hammerheads?

Yeah, this is true. Offhand, though, I don't think high-tier bounties would be hitting the cap - or at least hitting it nearly as hard - without these bonus, non-linear FP. Once this happens, though, yeah, the FP value of the capitals does factor in significantly. So there's a slight jump when the fleet first gets capitals, and a much bigger jump when it hits the cap and gets even more capitals.

So, "has nothing to do with" is probably too strong, but I'd still say it's not the main factor - or, rather, wouldn't be as big a factor without the additional FP boost.

I think my main point is really just that "fleet has a bunch of capital ships in it" doesn't really stem from "capitals have a somewhat lower FP value". Like, setting FP values to current DP values and turning up the FP values for fleets would produce a similar result.

(Edit: though, that *would* make a similar FP fleet be similarly powerful when it gets a cap vs when it doesn't. So, that's a fair point.)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 05:15:00 PM by Alex »
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Plantissue

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2020, 09:58:16 AM »

For the most part I think that most capitals are more than worth their equivalent DP against smaller hull sizes,  especially when there are more than 1 of them. Additionally both cruisers and capitals are are relatively undercosted in FP compared with frigates and destroyers.

Even without the strength of bounty fleets explicitly going up faster than linearly at the higher end, would those fleets seem to be too strong relative to the payout. So there are several additional scaling effects for the strength of a bounty that contributes to the relatively low values payout relative to the risk and investment to the high end fleet.

As it is, fighting the highest bounties (highest I've seen was 396k I think) is done not because it is profitable but because it is fun.

It's kind of funny how personal bounties were meant to be a placeholder, but ended up being the most fun game mechanic that players use to challenge themselves. Meanwhile their equivalent combat circumstances of colony being targeted for raid or expedition as well as hunting for pirate/luddic bases is disliked. I think the difference is the element of choice and variety.
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Megas

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2020, 10:11:35 AM »

Quote
Meanwhile their equivalent combat circumstances of colony being targeted for raid or expedition as well as hunting for pirate/luddic bases is disliked.
I would dislike base fights more because losing such a fight, or defaulting/ignoring the problem, can be catastrophic.  Colonies may burn down and decivilize!  If attacking a base, there is also the matter of finding it, and may require Sensors 1 in a worst-case scenario to find.

Named bounties are like bonus boss fights.  Nothing bad happens if ignored.  Base fights are like the final boss fights you cannot skip.  Ignore and something bad happens.  (Pirates raid a system, or major faction breaks your stuff.)

I generally prefer base fights over named bounties because the risk is less, and in case of major factions, the reward is much lower defenses to either raid for special items or sat bomb their world off the map.  I tend to do base bounties more when named bounties upgrade too much and fighting them becomes too hard for my current fleet.

Quote
Even without the strength of bounty fleets explicitly going up faster than linearly at the higher end, would those fleets seem to be too strong relative to the payout. So there are several additional scaling effects for the strength of a bounty that contributes to the relatively low values payout relative to the risk and investment to the high end fleet.
If I need capitals to fight them, yet losing just one of my own means a net loss after replacing it, then yes, the reward is not worth the risk.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 10:15:23 AM by Megas »
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bobucles

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2020, 01:41:41 PM »

Don't forget that the profit from a bounty isn't all credits. There's also good value in the extra ships attainable from salvage. Many harder bounties are packed full of high end, high quality capital ships and a single good grab can easily match the value of the bounty itself. Salvage rules are being fixed to so that ships don't autofail their dice roll if your fleet is maxed out, so that means more dice rolls and more prime ships for the looting.

intrinsic_parity

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2020, 01:59:30 PM »

I don't buy that the salvageable ships are really worth anything most of the time.

Once you are strong enough to comfortably beat the high end bounties, you already have a bunch of capital ships, so you don't really need any more, and definitely not heavily d-modded ones. The only ships worth salvaging at that point are ones you can't easily buy. High end bounties are packed with onslaughts and conquests that are just not worth taking. I also generally don't salvage anything with more than one d-mod unless I don't have any ships of that class (i.e. if I have no/few cruisers, I'll take a d-modded one) or I intend to restore it.

Its only worth salvaging a d-modded capital if you don't have enough capitals, but that period of the game is very brief. In my experience, I probably buy/salvage 2-3 capitals in a campaign and the rest come from my colony production. I probably only really need 3 capitals for the entire campaign (although I play around with more for fun). Salvageable ships just don't matter.
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Megas

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2020, 02:03:59 PM »

Their ships are broken after battle, so unless I want to use some, better to break them into salvage.  All I loot is vendor trash, much of it metal.  Bringing home clunkers does not seem like a good idea once I reach the point to reliably build pristine ships with Heavy Industry.  I guess the supplies and fuel looted merely make up for what was burnt for the round trip.

By the time I am ready to crush endgame bounties, I probably have everything I need to build pristine ships.

Occasionally, I may recover haulers if I would otherwise exceed capacity and need more capacity now.
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Plantissue

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2020, 03:52:52 PM »

You can't call a d-mod ship a high end, high quality ships. It's the opposite.

The salvageable ships are worth recovering if you somehow have a fleet of d-modded ships. By the time you are doing 250k+ bounties though, you've probably already have a fleet of 3+ capitals otherwise you will have a tough time getting to that stage in the first place, and that's way before the high end bounties.
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Thaago

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2020, 04:09:50 PM »

Salvaged enemy ships are not much value unless you do a Combat/Industry (Recovery, not colony) build and fight nearly pristine enemies (named bounties or faction fleets). Then they are insane in terms of value.

A combat playership led fleet should be able to kill larger enemy fleets with minimal losses. With good probability, you now own most of the enemy fleet with 0-2 D mods per ship, which all have their effects reduced by 50%. Its easy to double your fleet's size, maintain pretty good quality (never bother recovering 5 D mod pirate trash unless desperate), and get paid from a single fight. The main problem is that the player fleet grows so fast that no bounties are hard enough, so you can actually afford to be very picky about which (50% strength) D mods you even allow on your recoveries.

Taking the recovery skills theoretically reduces max endgame power, except that it really doesn't because no endgame content requires actually maxing out the player fleet at all.
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Plantissue

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2020, 04:42:14 PM »

Why would having those skills alter the value of recovered ships? You would be deploying your officered, pristine ships so they only value those recovered ships would offer is shifting the DP capacity towards your favour. There's not that much difference between a ship with 4 d-mods or with 2 d-mods that would turn one from not much value to insane value, especially if you will never deploy it. Even with 7 d-mods, a ship will still be about 70% of their original value, but that doesn't matter by the time you are facing these end bounties as you would never deploy them and are normally aiming to not suffer a single loss.

Why would d-mods effects reduced by 50%. Perhaps a removed skill?
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2020, 05:26:28 PM »

Even if you have industry skills, you can only deploy a certain number of ships and have a certain number of ships in your fleet. At some point, the ships you have in your fleet are just better than the ships that drop (and that happens very quickly in my experience). Once you've converged on your 'end game' fleet, you have no need of other ships. Unless you're losing a lot of ships, endgame salvaging is just not very useful because you just don't need more ships. The only ships you salvage are rare ships you don't have access to, and you intend to restore those so its definitely not profitable. In my experience, the top tier bounties require something near an 'end game' fleet to defeat them so the salvageable ships are mostly useless at that point.

Even before end game, I usually am aiming to mostly have ships that are much better than the average d-ship so d-ships very rarely represent any improvement to my fleet. The only time when I'm happy to take d-modded ships is very early on when I don't have enough ships to use all my deployment points and I need 'filler'. After that, I'm looking to replace d-ships with good ships, not add more.
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bobucles

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2020, 06:20:10 PM »

I've gotten enough 0-2 dmod ships from random bounties. It's a very nice source of ships, but you may not notice because of the 30-cap bug. Not all dmods are deal breakers and some are pretty much free so there are good grabs out there. Besides, having a 100% pristine fleet is an extreme luxury that is only viable after effectively conquering the game.

Thaago

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2020, 06:40:08 PM »

Why would having those skills alter the value of recovered ships? You would be deploying your officered, pristine ships so they only value those recovered ships would offer is shifting the DP capacity towards your favour. There's not that much difference between a ship with 4 d-mods or with 2 d-mods that would turn one from not much value to insane value, especially if you will never deploy it. Even with 7 d-mods, a ship will still be about 70% of their original value, but that doesn't matter by the time you are facing these end bounties as you would never deploy them and are normally aiming to not suffer a single loss.

Why would d-mods effects reduced by 50%. Perhaps a removed skill?

In reverse order:

There is a current skill that reduces the effect of D mods by 50%. (This, combined with other skills, makes Increased Maintenance actually save you supplies if you fight once every month or so, which is a fun bit of trivia.)

Without industry skills, a recovered ship will typically have 3-5 D mods, which significantly degrades their combat power. Because officers act as a power multiplier, that degradation is similarly multiplied, and power concentration is absolutely key. Heavily D modded ships are, honestly, not very useful beyond distracting the enemy (and they suck down fuel). If I'm not playing an Industry build, I don't recover anything but the rarest, least D modded ships.

With Industry skills, a recovered ship has 0-2 D mods, all of which have their effects reduced by 50%. These ships are much, much more useful. I'm not claiming they are as useful as a pristine ship, but they are extremely close. And several of the possible D mods become almost beneficial, because they have negligible bad effects but reduce both deploy and maintenance costs. And there is a decent chance of getting a pristine ship anyhow.

I was very surprised when I did an industry playthrough just how much better recovered ships become. But its a lot.

Even if you have industry skills, you can only deploy a certain number of ships and have a certain number of ships in your fleet. At some point, the ships you have in your fleet are just better than the ships that drop (and that happens very quickly in my experience). Once you've converged on your 'end game' fleet, you have no need of other ships. Unless you're losing a lot of ships, endgame salvaging is just not very useful because you just don't need more ships. The only ships you salvage are rare ships you don't have access to, and you intend to restore those so its definitely not profitable. In my experience, the top tier bounties require something near an 'end game' fleet to defeat them so the salvageable ships are mostly useless at that point.

Even before end game, I usually am aiming to mostly have ships that are much better than the average d-ship so d-ships very rarely represent any improvement to my fleet. The only time when I'm happy to take d-modded ships is very early on when I don't have enough ships to use all my deployment points and I need 'filler'. After that, I'm looking to replace d-ships with good ships, not add more.

The key point here is "at some point", and that the recovered ships are often pristine or near enough pristine to make only a small difference (see above reply: the recovered ships are not bad). Any time before that point, recovering a near pristine or pristine ship is worth exactly as much as it would cost to buy it, which is several times the payout of the bounty in most cases: a 200k bounty might give 1 million in recovered ships, even if I'm being picky about which D mods I accept. A multicapital bounty... gives multiple capitals at near pristine levels. There's no need to ever buy or produce ships unless you have a rare blueprint thats not showing up in bounty fleets.

After you have no need for more ships... well the game is over because you can smash any fleet into tiny little pieces with little effort. I happily admit that Industry skills don't help much at this point, but theres not much difference between being twice as powerful as the enemy and 2.5 times as powerful.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2020, 10:06:21 PM »

recovering a near pristine or pristine ship is worth exactly as much as it would cost to buy it, which is several times the payout of the bounty in most cases: a 200k bounty might give 1 million in recovered ships, even if I'm being picky about which D mods I accept. A multicapital bounty... gives multiple capitals at near pristine levels. There's no need to ever buy or produce ships unless you have a rare blueprint thats not showing up in bounty fleets.
But I don't need 6 onslaughts, even if they are pristine. I can't even use 6 onslaught and I certainly don't want to be lugging them around. They're not worth selling so if I can't use them, then they're worthless. Maybe the first bounty that drops onslaughts, I take one or two and then after that, all of the onslaught are worthless to me, even if they are pristine. The ships are worth what I would be willing to pay for them, not their sticker price, and if I don't want a ship, then its not worth anything. If a bounty gives me 8 mil in ships I don't want, all I really got was the supply and fuel cost of transporting them to my storage facility where they will sit forever. I rarely want to use more than 2 capitals at once. Maaaaybe 3-4 if I'm farming remnants but even then, I want paragons which are not getting dropped by 90% of bounties, so I'm gonna manufacture them anyway.

If I'm strong enough to kill 10 capitals, I probably have all the capital ships I need, and the recoverable ships are not worth much.
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bobucles

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Re: More tiers on bounties
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2020, 05:13:25 AM »

But I don't need 6 onslaughts, even if they are pristine. I can't even use 6 onslaught and I certainly don't want to be lugging them around. They're not worth selling so if I can't use them, then they're worthless. Maybe the first bounty that drops onslaughts, I take one or two and then after that, all of the onslaught are worthless to me, even if they are pristine. The ships are worth what I would be willing to pay for them, not their sticker price, and if I don't want a ship, then its not worth anything. If a bounty gives me 8 mil in ships I don't want, all I really got was the supply and fuel cost of transporting them to my storage facility where they will sit forever. I rarely want to use more than 2 capitals at once. Maaaaybe 3-4 if I'm farming remnants but even then, I want paragons which are not getting dropped by 90% of bounties, so I'm gonna manufacture them anyway.
Disliking something doesn't mean it no longer exists. The high valued capital loot is definitely there, rejecting it is just kind of like your opinion on the matter. Besides, any kind of bounties, missions and loot are completely irrelevant when you've reached paragon mass production endgame. Nothing can hold up against it.

The middle end bounties, with a good blend of capitals and smaller, definitely hits the sweet point for bounties. There is a chance for tagging the capital rewards without slogging through a dozen conquests. It also doesn't help that you HAVE to run the whole gauntlet, because simply withdrawing from battle will delete the loot.
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