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Author Topic: Hullmod thoughts  (Read 2910 times)

Plantissue

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Hullmod thoughts
« on: February 05, 2020, 07:54:11 AM »

At the start there are too few hullmods. For instance you can struggle to fill the Ordnance Points usefully for the Cerberus and Hound, which are commonly used only in the early game, especially if you have Loadout Design 3 before you have accumulated the right modspecs. For instance adding Capacitors for those ships feel a bit pointless as they don't have innate shields, though they can be useful for being able to fire guns for a longer time without pause depending on the weapons. However it is unlikely the player would want to put the rarer flux hungry weapons on this ships. So I propose that either Makeshift Shield Generator or Heavy Armor should be added as hullmods know at the start of the game, as both can be useful to both ships. Armored Weapon Mounts and Advanced Turret Gyros can aslo be known at the start of the game as they too aren't sufficiently complicated customisation that would require a Modspec and can be assumed to be rather easy to customise without requiring a collection of notes and guidelines and practical examples that modspecs represent in a universe where customisation is widespread.

I would suppose a counter argument would be that these early beginning ships are supposed to be easy kills for the player, but I suppose it can be coded in that ships meant to be easy kills simply wouldn't use those hullmods. Depending on gameplay vision, it could be seen that these ships are not meant to be more powerful for the player to be able to use.



I feel like there are too many hullmods and there can be a cull of some of the more unnecessary ones or ones which present discordant gameplay design. Suggest to remove or merge/change some of these to make space for more exciting hullmods and reduce the scrolling needed. The suggestion of the removal of hullmods from the refit screen allows ships which have the built in to remain built in.

Blast Doors - can be removed as there are other hullmods which provides a greater Hull Integrity like Reinforced Bulkhead which provides +40% as opposed to +20%. Insulated Engine Assembly also provides +10% Hull which is almost as cost effective (83%) in Ordnance Points as Blast Doors for increasing hull. As sad as the worth of human life is, crew casualties from hull damage is normally not a concern. It's benefits of hull increase and crew casualties can be rolled into Reinforced Bulkead or Insulated Engine Assembly instead. A problem would be that there is less granularity in increasing Hull integrity.

Recovery Shuttles - Crew loss is not normally a monetary concern and if it is a matter of storing crew a better solution is to obtain crew logistic ship. An alternative is to reduce crew loss by 75% instead to make them worth having.

ECM Package or Nav Relay. Can be a bit situational. Normally used for support ships. Clashes with thematically with the skills that automatically gives these hullmods in that you already are deploying these sensor jammers and nav bouys. If not from your ships already, where are they being deployed from? Though it can be argued that the hullmod is for much more dedicated ships, that requires hullspace like on the Omen. Alternatively, they can be merged together.

Solar Shielding - benefits of operating in a corona and in storms is only as useful proportional to the amount is is applied to the fleet. The effect be much better placed as a fleetwide skill rather than a specific hullmod. The reduces energy damage by 20% aspect is awfully discriminating towards energy damage and begs the question of other damage types. This type of rock paper scissors hullmod is not gameplay that works well in this type of game I feel. In theory against a fleet of energy damage it would give disproportionate benefits and against a fleet of no energy damage that fleet would be worse off as well as creating an impetus to change hullmods beforehand to match the fleet you are facing.

Unstable Injector - feels a bit odd when Safety Overrides exists as an option. Though I suppose it can be used on Capital ships. I mostly use it for logistical ships in the early-mid game in case of a pursuit.

I feel that Augmented Drive Field takes up a very large amount of OP for a very high burn increase. It is better off halved for a +1 benefit in burn speed for half the OP cost instead. If +2 burn speed is preferable, perhaps it can be able to be applied twice or a new hullmod that is half of Augmented Drive Field be created instead.

The relationship between Militarized Subsystem and Insulated Engine Assembly is a bit conflicting in that applying Militarized Subsystem provides the same benefit of reducing sensor profile by 50% by removing Civilian-grade Hull, thus implying this is done by applying the Insulated Engine Assembly innately but without the hull integrity increase. But Insulated Engine Assembly can be applied again. A solution would be to remove the +10% hull integrity aspect. Another solution would be to reduce the cost of Militarized subsystem and remove the benefit of removing the sensor profile by 50%, but that clashes with the removing of Civilian-grade hull aspect. Or perhaps Civilian-grade hull should not increase sensor profile by 50%, or that you cannot apply both Militarized Substem and Insulated Engine Assembly together. However, it's not really much of a problem as it is not too breaking of a discrepancy.
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Megas

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2020, 08:19:04 AM »

Currently, crew are generally expendable.  I only use Blast Doors when I have nothing better to spend OP on (early).

Recovery Shuttles can go.  Aside from cheap and plentiful crew, carriers need to go back to their roots and spend OP on guns, flux stats and warship hullmods; not overspecialize at being better fighter platforms (at the cost of leaving most or all weapon mounts empty).

Currently, I use ECM occasionally on warships to guarantee range advantage.  I do not use Nav Relays thanks to Coordinated Maneuvers.  However, the skill update may not have that free bonus just from deploying ships.  If the bonuses from Coordinated Maneuvers 1 and Electronic Warfare 1 will be gone next release, then those hullmods may become more useful.

Solar Shielding is useful either for storm riding or resistance to energy damage.  Sure, there are skills, but a hullmod option is nice for those who cannot get the skill.

I use Reinforced Bulkheads on as many ships as I can early to guarantee recovery after they die in combat.  This is a classic case of hullmod option when skill is not available.  That said, getting this hullmod on ships with low-ish OP hurt, especially Shrike and the battlecruisers.

I use Unstable Injector on smaller phase ships and (in early game) freighters that want to run away in a pursuit.  Could be useful on pure missileships (when usually means Reaper Afflictor).  If I use Hounds and Cerberus for pure freighter duty, I will stack everything speed so that nothing short of Hyperion and maybe phase ships can catch them.  For phase ships, Harbinger needs Unstable Injector (and Auxiliary Thrusters) to be (barely) fast enough to drive through ships and bypass shields like the phase frigates can.  Afflictor wants to be as fast as possible to do all of the evil things it can do.

For +1 burn, why not use Military Subsystems for that.  If the ship is civilian, it gives everything as it does now.  For military ships, all it gets is the +1 speed.  I do use Augmented Engines instead of Military Subsystems on civilians that have the (D) mod that reduces burn speed.  I like Augmented Drive Field, but I would also love a cheaper +1 burn mod, and only civilians have one!

P.S.  Expanded Deck Crew can go.  It is too good for carriers.  By too good, I do not mean it is overpowered (it is not), just that getting the hullmod effectively locks the carrier into pure fighter spam duty due to OP budget concerns.  As long as that hullmod is around, carriers will be incentivized to overspecialize as a carrier.  Carriers, except maybe Legion, do not have the OP to get both Expanded Deck Crew AND Integrated Targeting Unit (and the guns to make use of ITU).  Since carriers are designed to spam fighters, it is better to overspecialize and maximize their focus (of spewing fighters).  Without ITU, guns are mostly pointless on carriers.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 08:30:15 AM by Megas »
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bobucles

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2020, 01:13:08 PM »

Quote
I feel like there are too many hullmods and there can be a cull of some of the more unnecessary ones or ones which present discordant gameplay design.
The best place to start are with the S-rank hull mods. The big 3 of ITU, hardened shields and expanded dock crew aren't really modifications to ship design, so much as they are clear opposites of D-mods, making ships flat out better. You ALWAYS need shields, ALWAYS need range, carriers ALWAYS need more fighters, etc. As long as they exist to soak up OP, there is little reason to look at the vast array of situational hull mods. Ships simply run out of room. Even heavy armor is troublesome, it's so expensive and is arguably a complete ship overhaul (and is in fact a complete ship overhaul with the XIV), which doesn't really fit with the existing setting of "ragged, broken down fleets in space".

I enjoy most of the logistic style hull mods and the choices between them. There may be clear winners for a particular ship, but most logistic mods find their own places to shine.

If the big obvious hull mods were removed, what kind of mods would you use instead? Combat boosts like agility or point defense may still be strong options, but maybe there's more room for extra health or the like.

What if a hull mod was used as a way to overcome d-mods? So say a ship gets its armor broken, but you can spend some OP on makeshift repairs which suppress the penalty. The ship effectively loses OP, using the power of duct tape to hold a broken system together. It's not a direct system improvement to a core value of the ship, rather it's a cheap way to try overcoming a penalty.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 01:16:25 PM by bobucles »
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Megas

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2020, 01:41:58 PM »

Integrated Targeting Unit can be forgiven since Alex made that clear that he prefers it that way - and probably stick with that - instead of built-in range modifiers for ship size.  For the ships that do not care about shot range, they have extra OP.  The vast majority of ships use guns, and they need ITU.  Even the hullmod description makes it clear that range hullmods are standard.

He made no such comments about Expanded Deck Crew.  I am beginning to dislike that hullmod very much on dedicated carriers because they want or need it to keep their replacement rates up (or at least slow down the drain).  After I get that hullmod and any fighters better than Wasps or Talons, I do not have enough OP left to get weapons and ITU (except for Legion, but even that ship has a tight OP budget after both Deck Crew and ITU are bought).  Any weapons I do get are generally anti-missile PD, like flak or burst PD.

Alex said that piloting carriers for 0.8a and later should be fun.  If anything, they are less fun than before because carriers work best by throwing everything into fighters (and mostly ignoring guns) and run away like an extra-Timid captain.  Piloting a carrier is fun when I can brawl with weapons while fighters pick-off things elsewhere or too fast for my carrier to catch.  Legion is the only ship that can do something like that.  Heron and Gemini used to be able to brawl in pre-0.8a (well, pre-0.7a because officers during 0.7.x made fighters without skill support a complete joke), but now Heron is better as a bigger Drover.

I do not use Hardened Shields on everything with shields, due to tight OP budgets.  I do prefer it over getting max caps, especially on Conquest who is vulnerable to overloads from damage spikes.  I agree it is a top hullmod for many ships.  I am not sure if it is quite on the level of ITU or Expanded Deck Crew, but it is close.

I usually avoid Heavy Armor because I do not like the speed hit.

I do not like that some ships have just enough OP to get everything they need for combat and nothing else.  Getting a campaign mod can hurt for some ships.

Quote
What if a hull mod was used as a way to overcome d-mods? So say a ship gets its armor broken, but you can spend some OP on makeshift repairs which suppress the penalty. The ship effectively loses OP, using the power of duct tape to hold a broken system together. It's not a direct system improvement to a core value of the ship, rather it's a cheap way to try overcoming a penalty.
I would not mind seeing Expanded Deck Crew changed to overcome all carrier penalties from (D) mods and nothing else.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 01:43:46 PM by Megas »
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Megas

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2020, 02:03:26 PM »

Unstable Injector - feels a bit odd when Safety Overrides exists as an option.
I usually avoid Safety Override for combat use because it cuts PPT and shot range too much.  It is most useful on combat haulers (i.e., Hound and Cerberus) to guarantee escape in pursuits.  It also stacks with Unstable Injector, and the ships can have both!

If I need speed in combat that badly (which is rare for anything that is not a phase ship), I usually get Unstable Injector because it does not hurt PPT.
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Terethall

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2020, 05:24:00 PM »

I just want to chime in to agree that carriers are extremely prone to specialization and increasing marginal returns, meaning it's better to go all or nothing both on individual ships and also fleetwide, and even in terms of character skill points. Specializing in general (not just carriers, gunboats too) feels like a first-order optimal strategy in the game currently, at the character skill, ship build, and fleet composition levels.

I'd love it if jack-of-all-trades ships didn't feel like a stepping stone to a better, more specialized fleet, but more like a valid playstyle with meaningful advantages. For example the Odyssey really struggles to feel as useful as more specialized capitals, like the Paragon, Onslaught, Astral, or even the Legion (which only has two specialties, ballistics and strikecraft, instead of being an exploration/fast/energy/missile/strikecraft/PD boat). Similarly the Gemini is garbage and only useful until you have something better.
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Megas

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2020, 06:13:46 PM »

Modern Odyssey is a pure warship that has fighter bays on the side.  It functions much like an extra-large Shrike.  Odyssey does not really need fighter bays to fight well enough, but they can be useful.  Odyssey's biggest problem is the good brawling loadouts that the player wants causes the AI to behave suicidally.  AI with plasma Odyssey?  It will charge straight into the middle of a mob where it gets crushed fast.  AI Odyssey needs missiles and beams to make it stand off far enough away.  Also, plasma Odyssey benefits from a highly unbalanced loadout, like one with two plasma cannons, fighters among Longbows or Xyphos (maybe a Dagger), flux stats min-maxed, and little else, with most mounts empty.

The only jack ship that can do both carrying and brawling competently enough, if not optimally, is Legion.
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Thaago

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2020, 06:17:06 PM »

I feel like Reserve Deployment is powerful enough that Gemini's are actually more powerful than Condors, and they have a quite nice cargo capacity. I wouldn't call them overpowered, but I'll use them in an exploration/trade fleet as a relatively efficient hybrid.

For AI use of Odyssey I'm a fan of longbows + autopulse + Plasma + Locust + 3 linked sabots. The more moderate flux cost and higher anti-shield efficiency of the autopulse really helps the AI's flux management. Locust can be a MIRV if expecting to fight big ships mainly, but Locust is just so reliable.

Back on topic, I also feel like Expanded Deck Crew is too good. It also moves carriers more towards endless fighter spewers, rather than counterable waves, and so makes fighter deathballing worse.

In general I don't install many hullmods: often just ITU and hardened shields once I have them (or safety overrides for certain builds). Every once in a while one beyond the 'standard' set is very worthwhile for a certain build, but often simply flux stats is simply better and more reliable. This is especially true once I have hardened shields, as they magnify the value of capacitors by 33% (defensively at least) once installed.
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Plantissue

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2020, 08:17:50 AM »

I didn't really intend this to be a general hullmod balance discussion, instead focusing on that at the game start there are too few hullmods that are useful to the shieldless ships, and to focus on hullmods which can be removed as they present strange game choices such as being vastly more or less useful depending on the enemies you are facing against. Maybe I should had posted each point as a speerate topic or numbered each point? But as it is I don't mind as I rather like discussing tangential topics and broader balance.

Megas, the problem with Solar Shielding is that it is proportional to the ships that has that hullmod. The skill already exists that partially does the same thing and it has rather niche use as a hullmod. You will have to apply it to two thirds equivalent of your ships to get the same effect as the skill. Resistance to game damage is an unpreferable game mechanic.

I already wrote that I use Unstable Injector on logistical ships. That includes freighters.

Military ships can't have military subsystem.

Also Bobuncles can talk about hullmods I didn't mention. Afterall you are all talking about hullmods I didn't mention. I generally find I have enough OP. You may think carriers are OP starved, but they have more than enough OP to become well, OverPowered.


Bobuncles what do you mean by S-rank? It sounds like you use it for the most used hullmods? In which case, I agree. Though there are considerations for hardened shields as it isn't so simple for ships that run into a lot of flux use. I wasn't concerned with winners and losers of hullmods, but more with hullmods which don't fit well into good design and thematic philosophy. But to answer your question, logistic style hullmods are best used on logistical ships and military style hullmods are generally best used on ships that will see combat. As it is, depending on the ship and build, I do use hullmods like Ausiliary Thrusters and Heavy Armor and Integrated Point Defence AI. They have their niche uses. Just not as obvious as ITU.


As to Expanded Deck Crew and their role in specialising carriers, it should be fairly "easy" to make all carriers hybrid warships without additional changes. Take the example of the Odyssey or Brilliant. No fighter ship system. Reduce the count of fighter bays. Where there was 6 fighterbays, can be 4 fighterbays. Where there was 4 can be 3. Where there was 3 can be 2. Where there was 2 there can be 1. Where there was 1 can have built-in d-mods. Converted cargo bay deficiencies can be greater. Would also prevent the warding effect of fighters by increasing the numbers needed

In the end though specialisation will happen under current mechanics of plentiful fighter bays being the strongest weapon. Is it fair to blame Expanded Deck Crew? Perhaps, but I don't mind if it was removed. Or if fighter replacement rate decrease and recovery changes either. Or perhaps take the example of the Mora where it is slow and survivability is from its ship system. But even so, as long as there are ships in front to take damage instead of it whilst being able to send fighters through that ship, the player is incentivized to specialise. If 4 dedicated carriers are better than any other option specialistion will also occur. As long as 2 warships and 2 carriers are better than 4 warships, specialisation will occur. As long as 2 Astrals and 2 Onslaughts is better than 4 Legions specialisation will occur.


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Megas

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2020, 09:04:39 AM »

@ Plantissue:  The problem with the skill that does solar shielding campaign benefits is it is in Industry, and putting at least four points in Industry just to get that in an otherwise all-Combat build hurts.  (Spending points in only colony skills in Industry made my combat power suffer.)  This may be fine for Industrial builds, but not builds that want to completely ignore Industry to maximize skills in the remaining three trees.

Solar shielding (for storm riding) does not necessarily need to be on all ships, just the big ones that will eat too much if it takes a big hit.  That likely means midgame when player may have a capital or two.  I have used the hullmod for storm riding during midgame.  It is a niche hullmod, but not useless.  There is also the energy resistance part of Solar Shielding.

Quote
Military ships can't have military subsystem.
They cannot now, but, if +1 burn mod is good enough to add for military ships, then maybe let military ships take it, but only get the +1 burn.  However, since civilians can take both burn mods, it would not make sense to make them mutually exclusive for military ships to prevent +3 burn from both.  I do like Augmented Engines give +2, especially if I have a big ship with reduced burn.  However, there were times when +2 burn was too much, and would have liked a cheaper +1 burn mod to put on an Onslaught or Paragon to match the rest of my burn 8 fleet.

As for carriers, I want them to mount guns and not be gimped doing so.  Heron or Astral with Talons and guns is less effective than an (nearly) unarmed one with good fighters.  That was not the case before 0.8a, and that needs to come back.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 09:07:35 AM by Megas »
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Igncom1

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2020, 10:13:09 AM »

Accelerated Shields: Can't recall the last time I used this.
Additional Berthing: Put on your people carriers.
Advanced Optics: There aren't many ships/loadouts that would bother with this, so I never see a need to use it.
Advanced Turret Gyros: I occasionally use this, and never remember that I am using it and so can't tell the difference in battle.
Armored Weapon Mounts: I don't know how weapon damage works, and so I never use this.
Augmented Drive Field: I've not played early game for a while and am kinda fine with tugs. I basically never use this.
Automated Repair Unit: Can't recall the last time I used this. But could be good for luddite ships that cripple themselves.
Auxiliary Fuel Tanks: Put on your fuel carriers.
Auxiliary Thrusters: They make onslaughts better but most other ships don't really need them. Good for low tech?
Blast Doors: Crew is a problem for me. I still use Reinforced Bulkheads instead.
Converted Hangar: The de-buffs are so bad on this expensive option that I never use it.
Dedicated Targeting Core: If no ITU then DTU.
ECCM Package: The ITU of missiles. Very fun!
ECM Package: Cool idea, but I almost always end up with the perk that gives me it for free.
Efficiency Overhaul: If you don't want more storage. But I usually go for Surveying Equipment in early-mid game.
Expanded Cargo Holds: Put it on your cargo carriers. Also good for early game nomad/hoarding.
Expanded Deck Crew: I stopped using this at some point so I can't really recall how strong it buffs carriers. I feel.... fine without it?
Expanded Magazines: Does this actually still work? Because it feels like a legacy mod that was never properly updated.
Expanded Missile Racks: Best mod in the game. Fite me irl.
Extended Shields: I think I used this on the Odyssey, and that's it. Never felt too strongly about needing this one.
Flux Coil Adjunct: If you have already maxed out caps, I will occasionally double dip.
Flux Distributor: If you have already maxed out vents, I will occasionally double dip.
Hardened Shields: I like it, but that might be a bad thing as it almost feels TOO good.
Hardened Subsystems: I used to auto include on any destroyer or smaller. But now I play mostly around capitals. CR timers still feel like a bandaid for the AI.
Heavy Armor: Can be nice, but usually I'll play with armoured ships rather then slowing down flimsy ones.
High Resolution Sensors: Good early on.
Insulated Engine Assembly: Surprisingly nice for making your fleet more stealthy, letting pick and choose your fights more often. Also good for protecting onslaught ass.  ::)
Integrated Point Defense AI: I love it. But basically never use it for making smalls into PD, but just a PD buff for making fighter flares useless.
Integrated Targeting Unit: I've tried to not need it. But you kinda do.
Makeshift Shield Generator: A good mod, but avoid ships that need it.
Militarized Subsystems: Makes trash, militarized trash. Good enough.
Nav Relay: Get the perk.
Operations Center: I always auto, but never use this. Just seems like a waste.
Recovery Shuttles: I use this! It's all right, does what it says.
Reinforced Bulkheads: Turns fodder ships into lategame reusable fodder. HP is nice.
Resistant Flux Conduits: Feels good in concept, but I have no idea how much it it working for me.
Safety Overrides: I'm too chicken to use this.
Shield Conversion - Front: I've used this on the Odyssey, but over wise haven't found it necessary.
Shield Conversion - Omni: This feels like an outright penalty because the few ships that might want this have such terrible shields anyway.
Solar Shielding: A weird mod but cool enough for the campaign stuff. In battle it seems like the anti-remnant mod.
Stabilized Shields: I think I tried this once. Was it on a conquest? I dunno, basically never use.
Surveying Equipment: Save supplies, and thus save money.
Unstable Injector: Never used this after the nerf.
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Megas

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2020, 11:46:21 AM »

I shall copy Igncom1 and offer my feedback on the hullmods.

Accelerated Shields:  I use this on Hyperion and occasionally capitals if I can spare the OP.
Additional Berthing:  Used occasionally, usually when I want to raid.  Used it on Valkyries and, one time, fleet of Afflictors.  Used a few times early to cross the thousand crew threshold to build my first colony and still have enough for ships afterwards.
Advanced Optics:  I want this for loadouts with Phase Lances.  Sometimes, I use this on PD Lasers when I do not have LR PD lasers.
Advanced Turret Gyros:  Used occasionally.  Handy for tactical lasers, autocannons, or any beams with Advanced Optics.
Augmented Drive Field:  I always use this on anything with less than burn 8.  I dislike bringing more than two tugs to reach burn 20.
Automated Repair Unit:  It is great when combined with Damage Control 2, but I almost never use it lately because it is not as critical as other picks.
Auxiliary Fuel Tanks:  Used occasionally early.
Auxiliary Thrusters:  Required for Harbinger to turn fast enough when trying to drive past ships and bypass shields.  Without it, Harbinger turns too slowly.
Blast Doors:  Only used early when I have nothing better to spend spare OP.  Gets phased out as I acquire more hullmods.
Converted Hangar:  I do not use this in 0.9.x.  May be useful for small ships, but too expensive for capitals.
Dedicated Targeting Core:  Stock range mod.  Used when ITU is not an option.
ECCM Package:  Too expensive for comfort, but MIRVs need it and/or Missile Spec. to converge properly.  Wished MIRVs converged properly without aid.
ECM Package:  Used occasionally to preserve range advantage above and beyond ITU and Electronic Warfare 1, especially with a small fleet.
Efficiency Overhaul:  I use it on EVERYTHING!  I consider it must-have (even if others disagree).
Expanded Cargo Holds:  I occasionally slap it on warships when I need a little more cargo space and do not want to buy another ship.
Expanded Deck Crew:  The ITU for dedicated carriers!  It is an auto-pick for dedicated carriers.
Expanded Magazines:  Used rarely, usually on autopulse builds.
Expanded Missile Racks:  If the ship relies on missiles, they need it!  Missiles run out too quickly even with double missiles, let alone normal.
Extended Shields:  I like to use this on ships with 300 degree shields, namely Hyperion and Hammerhead, to give them full 360 shields.
Flux Coil Adjunct:  Caps are usually not as important as vents.  I think I use it rarely on Hyperion, maybe Afflictor too.
Flux Distributor:  I try to take this when trying to min-max dissipation for ships that need it.
Hardened Shields:  Critical for AI Conquest to avoid overloads from spike damage.  Very good on other ships.  Will try to get if I have OP to spare.
Hardened Subsystems:  Critical for some ships, especially Doom, Drover, and Hyperion.  Critical if preparing a base fight too close to a star or black hole.  Otherwise, there are more important picks.
Heavy Armor:  Rarely use because it is too expensive, and I dislike the speed penalty.  Cannot deny its usefulness, though.
High Resolutions Sensors:  Never use.  By the time I get it, I do not care about it.
Insulated Engine Assembly:  Never use.  Maybe I would use if I cared more about stealth.
Integrated Point Defense AI:  Used occasionally, usually on IR Pulse Lasers when I do not have enough burst PD yet.
Integrated Targeting Unit:  If the ship relies on guns to kill things and does not have Safety Override, it will have it.
Makeshift Shield Generator:  Good hullmod… on your enemies.  Enemy Hounds and Cerberus cannot run away as easily if they act cowardly.
Militarized Subsystems:  +1 burn mod for civilians.  Sometimes, good enough instead of getting more expensive Augmented Drive Field.
Nav Relay:  Never use, thanks to Coordinated Maneuvers 1.
Operations Center:  This is useful for some playstyles, like when experimenting with a Buffalo fleet with Converted Hangars.  I normally do not use those playstyles.
Recovery Shuttles:  Never use.  I have more important things to get.
Reinforced Bulkheads:  If the ship does not have an officer, it will have it.  I get it solely for the guaranteed recovery, though I will not say no to more hull.
Resistant Flux Conduits:  If I pilot the ship, I will take it.  Venting feels too slow without it.  I also put it on AI ships, although I suspect they do not vent spam.
Safety Override:  The PPT cut is too much.  It is of no use for me by midgame and later when I may want to resort to a stall war and outlast the enemy to win.
Shield Conversion Front:  Nice on most ships with 180+ omni shields as way to get both 360 shields and lower shield upkeep.
Shield Conversion Omni:  Rarely used.  The ships that can make use of it usually need to spend OP on better stuff.
Solar Shielding:  Used occasionally.  Good for storm riding.  May be useful against Ordos.
Stabilized Shields:  For some ships, the savings in shield upkeep exceed the dissipation gained from Flux Distributor.
Surveying Equipment:  Often used on Mora and other filler ships in my fleet to cut costs down to five.
Unstable Injector:  Critical on Afflictor and Harbinger, who do not care too much about shot range and need the extra speed to outmaneuver enemies.  Also useful for frigate-sized haulers to escape pursuit early in the game.  Otherwise, rarely used because the penalties hurt too much.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 11:48:29 AM by Megas »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2020, 01:25:48 PM »

Joining in on the fun

Accelerated Shields:  I can only remember using this on a paragon because it generally has some spare OP to play with. I think it helps the AI a lot more than the player, but it's definitely not getting used over a lot of the other hullmods.
Additional Berthing:  I've never used this and never felt like I needed it.
Advanced Optics: I use this on very specific load outs (4x tach paragon and HIL sunder). I think it could be good for phase lance on a medusa/aurora/eagle if using phase lance wasn't so mediocre to begin with.
Advanced Turret Gyros:  The only time I can remember using this is to compensate for the downside of advanced optics, it just doesn't do enough to necessitate use over other hull mods.
Augmented Drive Field: I use this while I have 1-2 capitals and want to be somewhat fuel efficient, but will swap it for combat hull mods and tugs if I want to go full combat or have more capitals. Pretty niche for me but it does get used. I would maybe use it very early on with my first couple cruisers if I had it available at that point.
Automated Repair Unit: Never used it and never felt like I needed it.
Auxiliary Fuel Tanks: I never use it, mostly because I have other logistics hull mods that I value more highly and I can always add more tankers.
Auxiliary Thrusters: I use it on low tech ships and if I use heavy armor. I like it but it doesn't do enough to warrant dropping other things.
Blast Doors: The quintessential OP filler hull mod. Rarely used
Converted Hangar:  Would rather use real carriers, costs too much OP between the hull mod and fighters to justify the benefit.
Dedicated Targeting Core: not much more to be said
ECCM Package: Never used because I rarely use ships that rely on missiles. The only missile boat I use is the aurora which doesn't have any OP to spare for luxuries.
ECM Package:  never used because I always get the perk
Efficiency Overhaul: I like to put it on haulers when I explore, but it really doesn't matter at all after the early-mid game. I'm definitely not sacrificing combat power for it. I do take some industry skill to increase supplies from salvage which I think compensates.
Expanded Cargo Holds: I don't use it because I can just get more cargo ships.
Expanded Deck Crew: Use it on every carrier
Expanded Magazines: Only useful with the auto pulse laser, and maybe for the built in weapons on the onslaught (although that might not actually help the ship)
Expanded Missile Racks: Required for missile boats
Extended Shields: don't really use it. It's nice when it gives 360 coverage, but generally not worth using over other things
Flux Coil Adjunct: Pretty much never used because I never max caps
Flux Distributor: I almost always use it on ships that fire guns (~90% of the time). Dissipation is the real measure of firepower and weapons are a lens that it is focused through. Max vents and Flux distributor go on most ships for me.
Hardened Shields: Easily the best defensive hullmod, good on any ship. Probably the first thing I put on after getting weapons and dissipation set up. I would sacrifice other things to put this on high tech ships.
Hardened Subsystems: Required on frigates and SO/phase ships, necessary on destroyers and I also use it on herons because they have low CR.
Heavy Armor: I pretty much only use this on low tech ships. I feel like it requires auxiliary thrusters which makes the OP cost too high. I wish I could use it more. I often force it on the Doom actually, it really lets you brawl more.
Insulated Engine Assembly: I will use it to compensate for d-mods and civilian penalties (if I don't have militarized subsystems), and I would also put it on high mobility ships if I have a few spare OP. Salamanders suck.
Integrated Point Defense AI: Weapons that are not already PD are generally somewhat flux hungry so I really don't want them firing all the time at random junk. Pretty much never use. I'd rather use real PD and good assault weapons than have mediocre smalls for both.
Integrated Targeting Unit: Required if you use guns
Makeshift Shield Generator: Bad because it is bad and the ships that can use it are bad
Militarized Subsystems: Required on every civilian ship IMO. Improves both burn and sensor stats.
Nav Relay: Perks exist if you care, but it's not even necessary if you don't.
Operations Center: Never used, not worth wasting a whole ship for IMO
Recovery Shuttles: Carrier filler hull mod. Can be good with some fighters like talons but I tend to end up with lots of sparks, so not that useful for me.
Reinforced Bulkheads: OP Filler
Resistant Flux Conduits: I like it for high mobility ships, because fast venting and EMP resistance are very good to avoid getting crippled in compromised positions. It's usually a squeeze to fit it in though, and it often gets dropped.
Safety Override: It's amazing early-mid game, but falls off late game. Early on when battles are small enough to be resolved in one round/quickly, you can smash everything with it. I usually keep a SO hammerhead and a SO tempest in my fleet late game to handle unshielded drones and pursuits respectively, but I don't use it much late game.
Shield Conversion Front: I occasionally use it to min-max dissipation, but I usually don't because omni shields are very good.
Shield Conversion Omni: Never used, doesn't seem terrible but it never felt like it fit on a ship
Solar Shielding: Rarely used, but if it wasn't a logistic hull mod, I would consider using it more often on cargo/fuel ships. If the damage resistance applied to shields, I would also think about it a lot more.
Stabilized Shields: I use it on most ships, and definitely all high tech ships. It's usually worth like 20 or more vents and can be worth even more on some hight tech ships. It's often worth dropping vents or flux distributor for it if OP is tight.
Surveying Equipment: I put it on my logistics ships until I can survey every planet for 5 supplies, then I start using other hull mods. I definitely would spend OP on a combat ship for it.
Unstable Injector: I don't use it, range matters too much


Overall, there are tons of hull mods that I never use because I just don't have the OP to spare for low impact buffs. I think the problem is that giving ships more OP will increase hull mod diversity but reduce weapon diversity. Generally, you pick weapons first and then support them with the best hull mods, and then spend extra OP on the luxuries. Maybe that's just a fundamental problem with having so many different design decisions require the same resource.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 01:27:33 PM by intrinsic_parity »
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Goumindong

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2020, 01:40:22 PM »

Accelerated shields is really good for ai-omni shield ships. (Or at least it used to be) they get really good at shield flickering with it
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Thaago

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Re: Hullmod thoughts
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2020, 04:45:51 PM »

Quote
...
Overall, there are tons of hull mods that I never use because I just don't have the OP to spare for low impact buffs. I think the problem is that giving ships more OP will increase hull mod diversity but reduce weapon diversity. Generally, you pick weapons first and then support them with the best hull mods, and then spend extra OP on the luxuries. Maybe that's just a fundamental problem with having so many different design decisions require the same resource.

I agree with this. Rather than more OP in general, I think hullmod costs need careful balancing vs their benefit and drawbacks. For a lot of the convenience and situational hullmods, its hard to really justify them vs capacity.
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