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Author Topic: Odyssey, the underappreciated flagship  (Read 3706 times)

Arcagnello

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Re: Odyssey, the underappreciated flagship
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2019, 07:06:42 PM »

I've just finished my second vanilla campaign and I can vouch for this. The hardest battle I've ever fought in the campaign was a Remnant fleet with three Brilliant class battleships (one of wich had 5 autopulse lasers, lovely stuff) but the second one just below that was a high pay Tri-Tach bounty with a couple paragons, Aurora cruisers, phase ships and two Astrals.

The Paragon is a beast, it just does not budge and requires costant pressure to prevent it from fully using its powerful armament even when it's AI controlled and has subpar weapons/modspecs. I had multiple Legions with full broadsword fighter wing loadout and 7,  7 Hypervelocity drivers with the sole job of pinning two Paragons (and the big cruisers) down while my carriers and Dominator assault cruisers eventually took out the small fry and only then I was able to actually put enough pressure to not only keep them away but actually damage them.

Anybody stating the Paragon is NOT the best usable ship in vanilla has lost it. It may not be as versatile as a Legion, or mobile as a Conquest, or boast as ludicrous burst damage as an Onslaught, or just be a good all-rounder like the Odyssey, hell even an Astral can be compared and can do more work under specific situations.

But the Paragon just does not care. It just advances, tanks, aggros half of the enemy fleet trying to kill it while the rest does the killing, and even alone a single paragon can outright take down bases without even taking the AI control off and driving it yourself. What single ship in the game can even do that?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 07:08:17 PM by Arcagnello »
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TaLaR

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Re: Odyssey, the underappreciated flagship
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2019, 08:20:58 PM »

Radiant and Guardian are actually better, considering that both are only 40 DP. But player can't get these.

Paragon IS vulnerable to Gauss sniping, but AI isn't smart enough to exploit this vulnerability and usually not outfitted with them anyway. Or more like Paragon has to choose between being being vulnerable to Gauss snipe (if you don't have all 4 TLs) or close range hard flux weapons (if you do have all 4 TLs).
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Tackywheat1

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Re: Odyssey, the underappreciated flagship
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2019, 09:24:04 PM »

Radiant and Guardian are actually better, considering that both are only 40 DP. But player can't get these.

Paragon IS vulnerable to Gauss sniping, but AI isn't smart enough to exploit this vulnerability and usually not outfitted with them anyway. Or more like Paragon has to choose between being being vulnerable to Gauss snipe (if you don't have all 4 TLs) or close range hard flux weapons (if you do have all 4 TLs).

Does gauss sniping deal enough hard flux fast enough? (or is this alternating gauss)
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Odyssey, the underappreciated flagship
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2019, 09:35:15 PM »

Radiant and Guardian are actually better, considering that both are only 40 DP. But player can't get these.

Paragon IS vulnerable to Gauss sniping, but AI isn't smart enough to exploit this vulnerability and usually not outfitted with them anyway. Or more like Paragon has to choose between being being vulnerable to Gauss snipe (if you don't have all 4 TLs) or close range hard flux weapons (if you do have all 4 TLs).

Does gauss sniping deal enough hard flux fast enough? (or is this alternating gauss)
Any hard flux is enough because it can't be dissipated while shields are up. Eventually they have to drop shields or overload and you get some armor/hull damage in. Then repeat until you kill. If the enemy can't get you into their weapon range and can't get out of your weapon range, then you just win with any amount of hard flux damage. The only limit is PPT.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 09:42:07 PM by intrinsic_parity »
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TaLaR

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Re: Odyssey, the underappreciated flagship
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2019, 09:35:59 PM »

Does gauss sniping deal enough hard flux fast enough? (or is this alternating gauss)

Sure, why not. A skill-less Conquest with 2 Gauss and 2 Maulers (to finish up faster) under player control kills Paragon in 2-3 minutes (don't remember exact). Under AI control it's likely to faff about never finishing the job though.
Add skills or Squalls to do it faster. Version with Squalls (2, in different weapon groups) can also kill the Paragon in AI vs AI duel, even if Paragon is optimized to counter-snipe with 4xTL (to significant degree through Paragon's own flux mismanagement).

I mean what can AI Paragon even do? It can't back off, because it's so slow. Can't just tank hard flux endlessly. It could mini-vent with perfect timing, BUT AI would only try shield flickering on last leg (too late for mini-venting) and won't get the perfect timing either. Player-controlled 4xTL Paragon could win against any Conquest with ease though.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 09:37:58 PM by TaLaR »
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Igncom1

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Re: Odyssey, the underappreciated flagship
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2019, 10:54:38 PM »

The TL only works against the conquest because the conquest shield sucks. It's basically an anti-armour weapon.
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TaLaR

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Re: Odyssey, the underappreciated flagship
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2019, 11:15:28 PM »

The TL only works against the conquest because the conquest shield sucks. It's basically an anti-armour weapon.

Soft flux doesn't matter once you have enough of it. AI-controlled, only Radiant and Paragon have good enough shields/dissipation to resist TLs+Gravs+Tacs for long. Of them only Radiant can do so indefinitely, Paragon commits suicide by unnecessary use of fortress shield against soft flux damage (if sufficiently high to pass Fortress shield usage threshold but not actually enough to overwhelm on it's own).

Though optimized and player-controlled Conquest can survive and defeat 4xTL Paragon too, even without relying on Squalls (just intermittently hold fire or mini-vent when given opportunities).
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 11:18:43 PM by TaLaR »
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Igncom1

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Re: Odyssey, the underappreciated flagship
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2019, 11:29:29 PM »

That's fair. If anything it's because I believe that the TL is the most overrated large energy weapon. Using it to brute force a win is basically unnecessary, and only works against weaker targets. In my opinion.
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TaLaR

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Re: Odyssey, the underappreciated flagship
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2019, 11:43:21 PM »

Almost anything is a 'weaker target' for Paragon, that's exactly the point.

But yeah, AI is bad using TL in anything but most inefficient and risky way. Still excellent long range support, but falls easily to well-shielded capitals. Radiant just roflstomps a TL Paragon.

HIL + 2x Autopulse + [Autopulse/Plasma] builds work best for AI in general and can fend off an optimized Radiant 1v1.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 11:47:52 PM by TaLaR »
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Plantissue

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Re: Odyssey, the underappreciated flagship
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2019, 03:33:45 AM »

This is just ridiculous. It's a frigate sized blindspot. As in you can just fit a frigate there. Even if the Paragon rotates a tiny bit, as it will do the frigate cannot stay within it. In practice there is no way a frigate can avoid being in the arc of a large turret. You can't call it a blind spot really. And even if it could, it is within the arc of 4 smalls and 2 mediums.

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A frigate for size comparison. Tempest has to be facing the Paragon and practically touching the Paragon's shield to be within the blindspot. If the Tempest had shields on, it cannot fit within the arcs.

What matters is that Paragon is kinda weak when flanked
Just come off it already. We know that when you said blind spot, you meant was saying the Paragon arcs don't extend down to its rear, when in fact both rear large can shoot backwards. But instead of admitting your mistake you double down on it and jump on when I said the blind spot is frigate sized and now you changed from rear to flank. If a Paragon flank has 1 large weapon but more than double the shield of a unflanked 2 large weapon Odyssey, then the unflanked Odyssey is weaker than a flanked Paragon. Well done.

A paragon has Fortress shield. It does a very good job of raising against Sabots I have found.
A paragon that raises its fortress shields isnt doing damage though. And so advances the advantage the Odyssey has (it also lets the odyssey lower its shields and dissipate hadd flux.

Yes and? Does the AI Paragon activate fortress shield and leave it on in your game? If it does, replicate it and submit a bug report. In practice the AI Paragon toggles its fortress shield for Sabots well enough. I'm not saying the AI paragon will win vs the Odyssey. The human controlled ship should always win.
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Sundog

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Re: Odyssey, the underappreciated flagship
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2019, 08:56:54 AM »

Let's try to keep things civil. There's no need to be rude or blatantly dismissive of other people's opinions.

Goumindong

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Re: Odyssey, the underappreciated flagship
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2019, 11:20:06 AM »

I see a lot of theory crafting, and not a lot of Paragons getting effortlessly blown up by Odysseys. Going 1v1 against a Paragon is certainly not a common event in deep space. In a fleet battle, Paragon's range looks like it'd be in the middle of the fleet and guarded on all sides. I wonder how well an ambush attempt will actually work?

Fortress shield has some theoretical weaknesses, but it has excellent synergy with burst weapons. Unload the burst power, turtle up, and get no punishment while the weapons recharge. As a bonus you trade a little hard flux to clear out all the soft flux. It's a potent skill when used properly.

Odyssey is better the bigger fleets get in this manner. As it can exploit its speed to remove those supporting ships from the paragons retinue. And then use the rest of the fleet to kill the paragon. The paragons speed makes it much weaker comparatively because it will be faced with a majority of situations where it cannot get in range to deal damage.
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