Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain  (Read 3462 times)

SafariJohn

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3010
    • View Profile
Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« on: November 09, 2019, 10:53:14 AM »

With this thread, I am trying to think inside the box to spice up hyperspace. So what is the box? The main bit is that hyperspace travel is a straight line from A to B. The other bits are speed ups are nice, but slow downs really really suck.

For this vision of hyperspace, I'm going to start by wiping the slate: the huge, arbitrary fields of deep hyperspace are right out.

So, what have we got? Constellations, star systems, and some labels.

I think it would be fun to tie real-space and hyper closer together, so what if nebula constellations have "hyper nebula" terrain around them - hyper because it has no slow-down effect. Pulsar beams could also extend a bit into hyperspace, but only the pushing effect.

I do like how hyperspace storms work, so I want to bring them back somehow. How about some constellations be "XYZ Molecular Cloud", inspired by the Telmun label, and surrounded by molecular cloud terrain. Because hyperspace can be weird, sometimes sections of these clouds experience "antimatter storms", where trace antimatter spontaneously appears and explosively interacts with the cloud. Antimatter storms would function exactly like current hyperspace storms, but molecular clouds would only have a stealthy-when-stationary effect like ring systems.

Taking more inspiration from labels, I want to suggest a couple new constellation types. The first is "Wastes of XYZ" constellations. Wastes are intentionally empty, with no more than one or two stars at the edge of the constellation. The second is rare "XYZ Deeps" constellations. Deeps constellations would be filled with a new "deep hyperspace" terrain that slightly reduces (say 10%) sensors, profile, and maybe speed (larger fleets more) as if your fleet were underwater. It would be awesome if it were shown by applying a wobbly filter like hyperspace's background uses, though less intense.

The edge of the hyperspace map has always bothered me, but combining deeps terrain with the Orion-Perseus Abyss label gives me an idea: abyssal hyperspace - like deep hyper but much worse, say 50% reductions. Surround the entire map with it, maybe label the top side the "Leeward Abyss", and put a ring of deep hyperspace between it and plain hyperspace. That would make the Sector sort of a continent or an archipelago. Give abyssal hyperspace the wobbly filter and a sharp edgeline where it meets deep hyper and it would look like a continental shelf. Could vary up the "coastline" with "XYZ Abyss" and "Gulf of XYZ" constellations that bring the deep and/or abyssal hyperspace in closer to the core.

All these terrains, except abyssal of course, would also appear in random patches and swathes around the map.



While the above terrains add much needed variety, I think there needs to be more small-scale terrain and stuff to break up the monotony.

Take inspiration from pulsars, for example, and have "neutron burst" terrain that lies nearly or totally invisible until a fleet crosses it, then "bursts", shoving the fleet in a given direction. And that's all it does.

Another idea: "quickgrav" terrain - alluding to quicksand. It waits nearly invisible until a fleet stumbles upon it, then it strongly pulls the fleet towards its center for a second or two before the fleet's engines dissipate it.

Kind of going aside, I'd like to suggest "fuel clouds", which are like debris fields but full of fuel. Probably not a good place to fight a battle, heh.

A bigger idea: "ejection disk"s. The opposite of black holes, ejection disks push everything away from them, perhaps in a spiraling pattern. Maybe if you fall into a black hole, you emerge in hyperspace from an ejection disk?

I'm running out of ideas, by I do have one left: waves. Alex messed with the idea of riding hyperspace waves for travel, but it didn't work out. I suggest using them for getting wayward players back on the map in a hurry. So abyssal waves coming out of the abyss and (in-system) hyperspace waves coming out of interstellar space. Let them just lightly shove moving fleets, but still or "s"low fleets get picked up and pushed along quickly.



Whew, that was a lot. TL:DR - vary hyperspace terrain based on real space terrain and add small, transient terrains and stuff that break the monotony of traveling in a straight line.
Logged

Cik

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 607
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2019, 02:29:29 PM »

hyperspace terrain would be much less obnoxious if you just had a waypointing system and could steer around it without a ton of guessing as to where all the openings are.

in terms of tactical terrain considerations, you'd have to make terrain actually do something besides be a minor annoyance first. the shape of the battlespace and the nature of the encounter almost never mean anything to start with, so no matter what those two things are it will never affect the battle much.
Logged

creature

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2019, 02:41:02 PM »

in terms of tactical terrain considerations, you'd have to make terrain actually do something besides be a minor annoyance first. the shape of the battlespace and the nature of the encounter almost never mean anything to start with, so no matter what those two things are it will never affect the battle much.
I agree with this. I think more could be done with asteroids, for instance. Maybe new, large - and I mean really massive - ones with huge HP pools which can be used as cover by small ships, and which represent real maneuvering problems for larger ones.
Logged

SafariJohn

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3010
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2019, 03:10:10 PM »

I think more could be done with asteroids, for instance. Maybe new, large - and I mean really massive - ones with huge HP pools which can be used as cover by small ships, and which represent real maneuvering problems for larger ones.

Such asteroids have been suggested many times, and I don't think Alex will ever add them because the movement AI does not think about obstructions. Changing the AI would take an enormous amount of Alex's time, so it will never happen.

That limitation applies to the campaign map, too, and is why this thread is "inside the box". Point-to-point only, no major obstructions, and minor obstructions must be momentary or push the affected fleet out of the area of effect.

I'd love to see any cool or weird ideas you have for minor hyperspace obstructions. I feel like I ran dry really fast.
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 23988
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2019, 03:23:17 PM »

That limitation applies to the campaign map, too, and is why this thread is "inside the box". Point-to-point only, no major obstructions, and minor obstructions must be momentary or push the affected fleet out of the area of effect.

I'll say, I particularly appreciate this aspect of the idea. That makes a huge difference as far as things being more practical and realistic to implement. Will certainly be keeping an eye on this thread!
Logged

creature

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2019, 03:29:22 PM »

I'd love to see any cool or weird ideas you have for minor hyperspace obstructions. I feel like I ran dry really fast.
Now that you mention it, I sort of expected Black holes to suck me in from hyperspace, when I first started out. I even went out of my way to fly around them. Their menace factor severely dropped for me when I realized this wasn't the case.
Logged

SafariJohn

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3010
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2019, 08:33:57 PM »

That's a really cool idea.

Took me some thinking, but I came up with another idea: unstable jump points to rogue planets/whatever. Unlike normal jump points, these ones link directly to an event or discovery dialog. After you deal with it, your science officer informs you that the jump point is destabilizing - it vanishes right after your fleet makes it back to hyper.
Logged

MesoTroniK

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1731
  • I am going to destroy your ships
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2019, 08:47:53 PM »

Now that you mention it, I sort of expected Black holes to suck me in from hyperspace, when I first started out. I even went out of my way to fly around them. Their menace factor severely dropped for me when I realized this wasn't the case.
Hyperspace has no direct connection nor relationship to real space, that is lore. Gameplay wise? Making the AI deal with that well every time would be... hard.

SafariJohn

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3010
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2019, 06:00:32 AM »

Hyperspace has no direct connection nor relationship to real space, that is lore.

I don't know where you are getting that, Meso. Jump points naturally form where there are large gravity wells and follow planetary orbits, and stars seem to be spaced apart based on their real-space locations. That seems pretty connected and related to me.

Gameplay wise? Making the AI deal with that well every time would be... hard.

I think it is possible. E-Burn, or perhaps a hidden signal terrain so AI fleets can use their GTFO-type avoidance routine. And it all depends on the exact implementation.


Brainstorming some more: small, static or orbiting nanite clouds. Most chip away at CR, but some repair ships instead.
Logged

bobucles

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2019, 06:09:44 AM »

Quote
That seems pretty connected and related to me.
Related? Sure. Euclidean? No. There's no clear connection between flying in a straight line in hyperspace, and flying in a straight line in normal space. Not that anyone would want to take the long route anyway, since most stars IRL are separated by an order of lightyears. If a star system has no clear destination in hyperspace, it'd be nearly impossible to fly to.

Do all hyperspace hazards have to be stationary? It might be cool to have rare super storms that pop up every now and then. Flying through them would be harrowing and they might even isolate a system if they spawn over one.

SafariJohn

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3010
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2019, 10:47:50 AM »

Do all hyperspace hazards have to be stationary?

Nope! The main problem is that most terrains don't stack very well, but that's why I suggested intentionally empty areas such as the wastes constellation type.

Doing more stuff with jump points, such as sometimes closing them as you implied, sounds great to me. Maybe gravity well jump points can't be closed, that way it's always possible to get out of hyper at a system.
Logged

Nick XR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 712
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2019, 11:00:17 AM »

hyperspace terrain would be much less obnoxious if you just had a waypointing system and could steer around it without a ton of guessing as to where all the openings are.

This would make the current implementation work a lot better IMO.  If I could check the map and figure out how to actually get somewhere without just plowing through storms I might actually do a technique other than just set a way-point and alt-tab.
Maybe you could buy high quality hyperspace maps, maybe it's only after you actually pass through an area do you know what's there, that would be fine.  Maybe it's a hullmod for a capital class ship that enables this (built into "exploration ships"), how about calling it "Hyper Extent Calculator" or some such.

SafariJohn

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3010
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2019, 05:34:37 AM »

Alright bobucles, you got me thinking about mobile hyperspace stuff this morning and I remembered an idea I had for false sensor contacts. Came up with several things from that.

False sensor contacts look like sensor contacts, except they never resolve into anything no matter how close you get. Most just sit somewhere, but some move, and some chase fleets that get close. If they are fast enough to catch the fleet they just hover on it like annoying flies, heh.

That reminded me of Titan A.E. where they had a giant crystal field with lots of reflections. Let's say in Starsector it reduces the profile and sensor range of fleets in it, and it is filled with lots of false contacts (which also have their profile reduced). Maybe sometimes fleets moving through it get impacted like asteroid fields. Since I'm looking for moving terrain, let's say each field is made of several terrain tiles and it moves by crystals growing out of nothing in front of it and old crystals shrinking back into nothing. As long as it stays away from systems and avoids nebula and molecular cloud constellations, that ought to work just fine.

A random idea: the contact worm/flow. A large "worm" of slowly moving sensor contacts. If you go stationary or slow in it, you're profile decreases a lot and it drags you along. For fun, maybe it sometimes "chases" stationary fleets that aren't in it.

Stepping back to mention black holes in hyperspace - maybe they wouldn't do damage. Just suck in fleets and spit them out of nearby ejection disks. Now, the ejection disks might rough up the fleet a bit, but they throw fleets out of their effect fast so that's not a big deal.

Back to "false" contacts. Very rarely, those false contacts resolve into a fleet of strange, transparent ships which attack! Ghost ships continue attacking until destroyed, and they just vanish when they drop to 0 hull, leaving nothing to salvage.

My last idea for false contacts is echoes. Echoes are sensor contacts that randomly appear and match the movements of your fleet exactly. I don't think you should see the echoes of other fleets. Rarely, one of the echoes might peel off and disappear after a few moments... Rumor has it that's where ghost fleets come from.


hyperspace terrain would be much less obnoxious if you just had a waypointing system and could steer around it without a ton of guessing as to where all the openings are.

This would make the current implementation work a lot better IMO.  If I could check the map and figure out how to actually get somewhere without just plowing through storms I might actually do a technique other than just set a way-point and alt-tab.

I suggested a plausible and comprehensive system that would enable waypoints for the player and AIs, but Alex did not think it would be worth the effort. I don't think it's worth dwelling on.

Maybe you could buy high quality hyperspace maps, maybe it's only after you actually pass through an area do you know what's there, that would be fine.  Maybe it's a hullmod for a capital class ship that enables this (built into "exploration ships"), how about calling it "Hyper Extent Calculator" or some such.

I do think it would be cool to have exploration fill-in features like this! Maybe entire star systems are left off or lost from the official maps.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7174
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2019, 10:21:18 AM »

One interesting anomaly that could appear in hyperspace (say in the center of a storm) could be a temporary jump point that leads to a hidden system not otherwise accessible. Or a system located far away, making it a possible shortcut (text on it when interacting could say something to the effect of "the scouting probe's telemetry seems to indicate that this jumppoint leads to the ____ constellation!")

I like the idea of false sensor pings, though at some point I think I'd just start ignoring sensor pings in general.
Logged

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
Re: Thinking Inside the Box About Hyperspace Terrain
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2019, 11:45:49 AM »

One interesting anomaly that could appear in hyperspace (say in the center of a storm) could be a temporary jump point that leads to a hidden system not otherwise accessible. Or a system located far away, making it a possible shortcut (text on it when interacting could say something to the effect of "the scouting probe's telemetry seems to indicate that this jumppoint leads to the ____ constellation!")
Secret systems in huge storms sounds like an amazing way to add late/end game areas. Just make it very difficult to get into the jump point without some special tech from a quest. Something like making all the storms bounce you away super hard unless you have the ''hyperspace inertial damper" or whatever, and then that unlocks access to super cool hidden systems with late game enemies/loot. Or it could even be a scripted final story mission type thing where you see the mysterious hidden systems the whole game but can never get to them until the end of the story (insert lore here) after which it becomes the end game area.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2