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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2 (04/30/22)

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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.1.3)  (Read 533374 times)

vaarelsauce

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1665 on: January 28, 2022, 12:56:57 AM »

So I have an error with Domed Cities being built on water/underwater worlds, even after changing this setting to true: "boggledDomedCitiesBuildableOnWaterWorlds":true

I restarted the game a few times, and every time this error shows up: "Error in getUnavailableReason() in Domed Cities. Please report this to boggled on the forums."

I'm assuming it's either because I've already discovered this world (and the code failed to re-check this particular colony(?)), or the function doesn't exactly work. Either way, I hope there's a quick  fix for this soon!
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ArkaneKannon

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1666 on: January 28, 2022, 11:56:26 AM »

So I'd like to weigh in on my opinion with terraforming. I've lost track how many times it's been changed to date but, I don't particular mind the new system. It's thought provoking in it's own way. That's good, what's a little bizarre to be is the flip from the colony buildings that either suppressed or removed a certain affliction(IE The Terraforming platform for mild and removing extreme weather) for the menu to another item in the interactive menu for planets(With as many mods as me I've actually hit Zero hotkey for options.). Personally I'd like to keep the new math's and strategizing different worlds for different jobs. Though, I would like to see a return of the terraforming platform(With the new limitations in mind IE No mild on jungle or Tundra worlds). I think implementing it in a modifier suppression way instead of just out right removing the problem is cool(Except maybe extreme weather). Like if you have a colony on toxic world, you need an atmosphere processor to keep the toxins away(Could work for pollution or hostile biosphere). I honestly wouldn't mind if completely terraforming a planet was locked behind the Gene labs, I mean when you get a colony it's pretty much game as soon after planet types are little more than an inconvenience. I'd settle the sun if it produced enough volatiles. Hell, I'd terraform it to boot.
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1667 on: January 28, 2022, 02:46:19 PM »

So I have an error with Domed Cities being built on water/underwater worlds, even after changing this setting to true: "boggledDomedCitiesBuildableOnWaterWorlds":true

I restarted the game a few times, and every time this error shows up: "Error in getUnavailableReason() in Domed Cities. Please report this to boggled on the forums."

I'm assuming it's either because I've already discovered this world (and the code failed to re-check this particular colony(?)), or the function doesn't exactly work. Either way, I hope there's a quick  fix for this soon!

I'll try to issue a patch this weekend to fix this. Thanks for the report and sorry for the inconvenience!

Regarding your proposed changes, I can see a few potential issues:

1. You write that the focus for Terran is farming - but since it starts with volatiles and therefore can't slot Soil Nanites, it's actually inferior for farming relative to Jungle and Arid despite their lower max farming values!

2. If the player suppresses the Hot or Cold condition, I think they'll have the expectation that they should be able to turn that planet into a Terran world. Stopping that wouldn't make sense from a lore standpoint. Also, I think all procedurally generated Arid/Desert planets are hot - allowing the player to create Arid/Desert worlds that are cold seems to be incongruent with how the vanilla system works, even if it makes sense from a realism standpoint.

3. The divergence in max values between planet types is less than the current system (even for farming, if you assume the player has access to Soil Nanites). If anything, this will make the planet types less distinct and more interchangeable.

1. I consider soil nanites as form of rare compensation for worse conditions - not a default bonus. I played many games without even finding one. But for compensation there has to be reason for it. I was able to create a jungle food +9 paradise (food +2 from bountiful farmland, another +2 from reflectors, and +2 from soil nanites, +1 from governor, +1 from alpha core, +1 from story point improvement) from barren extremely hot planet. It was hurting my eyes! I hate soil nanites.

2. Well, I was thinking about that too, but currently Arid type has little reason to exist, because it is outclassed by Jungle and Terran (no one cares about traces of volatiles). I was thinking about making Terran type a bit elite but... I got another idea! Terraforming points!

Each planet will have a pool of f.e. 120 terraforming points to spent. Every action will have a cost. Every planet and resource will have a preferred temperature condition:
Terran - normal, Water - normal, Jungle - hot, Arid - hot, Tundra - cold, Freezing - very cold
Food - normal, Organics - hot, Volatiles - cold

Base cost for resource improvement could be 12 points (12 is nice number; can be divided by 2,3,4,6), but if the action is taken outside of its preferred conditions, to the cost will be added another 12 points for every temperature difference step. Suppressing conditions by solar mirrors/reflectors will halve the penalty.
Example 1: Improving volatiles on hot Arid planet will cost base 12 + penalty for volatiles hot to cold difference + 12*2 = 36, but with reflectors: 12 + 24/2 =24 points.
Example 2: Improving food on hot Terran planet with solar mirrors will cost base 12 + 12/2 penalty for food normal to hot difference + 12/2 penalty for improving not normal Terran = 24 points
Example 3: Improving volatiles on very hot Jungle planet will cost: base 12 + 36 penalty for volatiles very hot to cold difference + 12 penalty for improving not on the hot Jungle (no suppression can be made) = 60 points
Example 4: Improving organics on very hot Jungle planet will cost: base 12 + 12 penalty for organics very hot to hot difference + 12 penalty for improving not on the hot Jungle (no suppression can be made) = 36 points
Example 5: Improving food on very hot Jungle planet will cost: base 12 + 24 penalty for food very hot to normal difference + 12 penalty for improving not on the hot Jungle (no suppression can be made) = 48 points
Atmospheric improvements also should have a cost f.e. 12 or 24 points?
Changing planet type - 48 points?
Terraforming points should prevent creating extremely hot/cold monstrosities that i mentioned before. A hope it is doable.


This is an interesting idea and could probably be implemented from a coding standpoint, but I'm not sure it would create a good gameplay experience. Players would be confused and frustrated that their planet can no longer be improved because they ran out of abstract terraforming points, instead of more tangible and realistic limitations based on factors like temperature or the type of planet.

So I'd like to weigh in on my opinion with terraforming. I've lost track how many times it's been changed to date but, I don't particular mind the new system. It's thought provoking in it's own way. That's good, what's a little bizarre to be is the flip from the colony buildings that either suppressed or removed a certain affliction(IE The Terraforming platform for mild and removing extreme weather) for the menu to another item in the interactive menu for planets(With as many mods as me I've actually hit Zero hotkey for options.). Personally I'd like to keep the new math's and strategizing different worlds for different jobs. Though, I would like to see a return of the terraforming platform(With the new limitations in mind IE No mild on jungle or Tundra worlds). I think implementing it in a modifier suppression way instead of just out right removing the problem is cool(Except maybe extreme weather). Like if you have a colony on toxic world, you need an atmosphere processor to keep the toxins away(Could work for pollution or hostile biosphere). I honestly wouldn't mind if completely terraforming a planet was locked behind the Gene labs, I mean when you get a colony it's pretty much game as soon after planet types are little more than an inconvenience. I'd settle the sun if it produced enough volatiles. Hell, I'd terraform it to boot.

You have a valid point - the terraforming menu feels sort of like a console command, while building structures such as the Terraforming Platform and seeing them improve conditions is more rewarding. The terraforming menu does have some advantages over buildings though, like being very straightforward and easy for newer players to grasp.

Something I'm considering is linking the subsections of the terraforming menu to specific buildings, and having the project options pop up when the player clicks on the building. For example, if the player clicks on the Atmosphere Processor building, instead of the menu options regarding installing items or AI cores, the various projects will pop up instead. This may not be feasible from a coding standpoint so I'll have to look into it more.
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Iannar

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1668 on: January 28, 2022, 03:53:29 PM »


This is an interesting idea and could probably be implemented from a coding standpoint, but I'm not sure it would create a good gameplay experience. Players would be confused and frustrated that their planet can no longer be improved because they ran out of abstract terraforming points, instead of more tangible and realistic limitations based on factors like temperature or the type of planet.

So I'd like to weigh in on my opinion with terraforming. I've lost track how many times it's been changed to date but, I don't particular mind the new system. It's thought provoking in it's own way. That's good, what's a little bizarre to be is the flip from the colony buildings that either suppressed or removed a certain affliction(IE The Terraforming platform for mild and removing extreme weather) for the menu to another item in the interactive menu for planets(With as many mods as me I've actually hit Zero hotkey for options.). Personally I'd like to keep the new math's and strategizing different worlds for different jobs. Though, I would like to see a return of the terraforming platform(With the new limitations in mind IE No mild on jungle or Tundra worlds). I think implementing it in a modifier suppression way instead of just out right removing the problem is cool(Except maybe extreme weather). Like if you have a colony on toxic world, you need an atmosphere processor to keep the toxins away(Could work for pollution or hostile biosphere). I honestly wouldn't mind if completely terraforming a planet was locked behind the Gene labs, I mean when you get a colony it's pretty much game as soon after planet types are little more than an inconvenience. I'd settle the sun if it produced enough volatiles. Hell, I'd terraform it to boot.

You have a valid point - the terraforming menu feels sort of like a console command, while building structures such as the Terraforming Platform and seeing them improve conditions is more rewarding. The terraforming menu does have some advantages over buildings though, like being very straightforward and easy for newer players to grasp.

Something I'm considering is linking the subsections of the terraforming menu to specific buildings, and having the project options pop up when the player clicks on the building. For example, if the player clicks on the Atmosphere Processor building, instead of the menu options regarding installing items or AI cores, the various projects will pop up instead. This may not be feasible from a coding standpoint so I'll have to look into it more.
If you are talking about confusion - I was already confused with its current model at the beginning, so don't worry about that. Good explanation is everything you need, we players don't always like simple and plastic things. Planetary management in Starsector is simplistic enough. Compare it to Stellaris f.e.
If you are worried about frustration from lack of points than let's combine it with ArkaneKannon idea and let terraforming buildings: genlab, atmospheric processor, terraforming platform add points. Ba! It could be the only way to add them. If you're running off buildings that add points, make terraforming platform upgradable - pay to terraform rule.
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1669 on: January 28, 2022, 05:07:15 PM »

we players don't always like simple and plastic things.

I strongly disagree with this. I think very few people are willing to read a wall of text on a tooltip, and will simply not engage with the content if they don't understand how it works.
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Yunru

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1670 on: January 28, 2022, 07:24:52 PM »

I'm perfectly willing to read walls of text (most of the time), and I still don't like the proposed ideas.

Iannar

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1671 on: January 28, 2022, 10:21:28 PM »

we players don't always like simple and plastic things.

I think very few people are willing to read a wall of text on a tooltip...
Yep that's me!  ;) But I'm little surprised about your way of thinking. Starsector is very complex game in terms of ship building, fleet composition and combat. People are still debating about these things a lot on this forum. There are a lot of questions coming from confused new players as well. It's a niche game for patient, wanting to learn something players, not some mobile and relaxing clicker. Well, that could be reason why this game isn't very popular... Making planetary management a little more complex won't hurt. I hope you will take some "golden mean" from our little discussion here and make this mod even better.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 10:28:08 PM by Iannar »
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Yunru

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1672 on: January 29, 2022, 12:46:43 AM »

I really don't.
The UI could use work, but the actual terraforming system in the current version is great! (I presume the requirements and limitations are based on vanilla planet generation?

Iannar

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1673 on: January 29, 2022, 03:17:15 AM »

I really don't.
The UI could use work, but the actual terraforming system in the current version is great! (I presume the requirements and limitations are based on vanilla planet generation?

Oh, so you are fine with resource improvement method being basically a free console command with 200 days delay?
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Yunru

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1674 on: January 29, 2022, 04:07:39 AM »

I really don't.
The UI could use work, but the actual terraforming system in the current version is great! (I presume the requirements and limitations are based on vanilla planet generation?

Oh, so you are fine with resource improvement method being basically a free console command with 200 days delay?
Yes? It's convenience factor, not a balance one. I could already just hunt down whichever planet has optimal conditions for my needs, or I can invest time and money to not have to.

Uhlang

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1675 on: January 29, 2022, 04:32:28 AM »

Oh, so you are fine with resource improvement method being basically a free console command with 200 days delay?
"Free" and "200 days delay" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Time is a resource, and perhaps the most valuable one, at that.
There's also the planet type and structure limitations. It's not like this mod allows you to turn your gas giants into wellsprings of organics.

Honestly, if there has to be a change, I think it should be within the boundaries of the type/structure-based skeleton of the mod as it is now. I myself feel like certain options are a bit too accessible, but overhauling it to incorporate points like in ~6.0 seems like a bit much. There should just be an extra barrier or two.
Farmland improvement could be barred behind Genelabs, while Organics/Volatiles improvement should maybe require a new "Resource Pressurizer" structure. That kind of thing.
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ArkaneKannon

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1676 on: January 29, 2022, 04:45:17 AM »


You have a valid point - the terraforming menu feels sort of like a console command, while building structures such as the Terraforming Platform and seeing them improve conditions is more rewarding. The terraforming menu does have some advantages over buildings though, like being very straightforward and easy for newer players to grasp.

Something I'm considering is linking the subsections of the terraforming menu to specific buildings, and having the project options pop up when the player clicks on the building. For example, if the player clicks on the Atmosphere Processor building, instead of the menu options regarding installing items or AI cores, the various projects will pop up instead. This may not be feasible from a coding standpoint so I'll have to look into it more.

That sounds cool, like I was talking about in the other post- you could also have the ETUEC Or terraform mcguffin come back you be slotted into a gene lab which, with out it can't change world types but could still permanently remove negative debuffs. It would encourage exploration and make every world you do terraform that much more special like you want. DIY Terraforming is kind of similar and requires a vast array of domain era loot to get a specific job done.  It think it goes a little too hard on artefacts but there is appeal to the idea. Though leaning too hard into that would make the both of them feel very samey. Though you still have station construction and what not, not to mention domain components. Keep up the good work though- One of my favorite mods on the forums and use it every time I play.  Thanks for all the hard work.
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Iannar

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1677 on: January 29, 2022, 04:53:18 AM »

...I can invest time and money to not have to.
And I'm just asking for that money part. It could be a simple credit pay, building built or upgraded, resource spent, item installed, terraforming point spent... anything that will make the player feel rewarded. If that money part could also fix some nasty things like +9 food +5 organic Jungle very hot planet, it would be great.
Farmland improvement could be barred behind Genelabs, while Organics/Volatiles improvement should maybe require a new "Resource Pressurizer" structure. That kind of thing.
I like that idea. As for time as resource, I remember old versions of mod where terraforming time was much, much longer and it was also a balance factor.
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Hushed

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1678 on: January 30, 2022, 07:07:54 AM »

I love terraforming in games.  I have since I played MOO2 and Stars!  I'm currently dragging my feet on starting new StarSector playthroughs while I wait for updated terraforming mods.

Gameplay-wise I prefer terraforming that doesn't focus on everything aspiring to perfect Gaia worlds so much as terraforming that shapes and reflects being perfect to the industries that the location specializes in.  Water worlds are amazing for bio industries, asteroid belts are great for mining, and lagrange points (or stable locations) might be perfect for something like shipyards or research.

I like how vanilla boosts colonies with rare items.  I like the idea of colonies being barely a blip while terraforming is ongoing- crashing a water comet into a planet sounds like something detrimental to pre-existing infrastructure.  I like terraforming being a long term investment, and I like the idea of factions wanting to buy or steal that investment.

I prefer more interactivity with terraforming to less.  I like consequences to choices (can a colony assert it's independence or adopt a faction?  what happened to that decivilized population?).

Basically terraforming in games is my jam.  I totally get it if there's a desire to focus on practical 'quality of life' changes to various playstyles.  I just wanted to throw in there that you have my full throated support if you want to make terraforming itself the playstyle :)

Cheers,
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Farya

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1679 on: January 30, 2022, 07:42:03 AM »

So could the Domed Cities be turned into an upgrade of Population now? Yunru had managed to add a structure version of the Commerce which is then updated into an actual industry. Or maybe that could be and advanced version that you have to find blueprint for first - honestly I don't like that terraforming is a little bit too slow (but not as slow as it used to be) but it would be nice if some options would be locked behind exploration content or having contacts within major factions.

BTW, shouldn't Domed Cities demand some organics/metals to maintain them?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2022, 07:45:31 AM by Farya »
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