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Author Topic: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)  (Read 429652 times)

boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v6.0.0)
« Reply #1155 on: April 25, 2021, 08:17:15 AM »

Great update of the great mod. Though I got two questions to ask:
1. Shouldn't the stellar arrays built by player be identical to the ones they could find around planets during exploration? Permanent ones as market condition and not requiring structure slot permanently. Or the ones built by the player are crude imittations of domain era ones? Maybe description and sprites should represent that. Or the player should find an assembly kit during exploration for domain era ones.

The reflector arrays found through exploration are modified (with default settings) to have the Stellar Reflector building present upon colonization of the planet. If you have that setting enabled and encounter a situation where you colonize a planet and the building isn't automatically added to the colony, please let me know as that's a bug.

2. Might it be possible to make Domed Cities an upgrade for Population instead of being a separate structure? It's kinda strange lore wise to see them disrupted as structure and all the people and industry magically resettling back into de-centralized settlements around hive domes. Also would make sense for them to not be buildable by default and require a blueprint to be obtained first. Because otherwise it becomes strange why a player could build them but not the major factons most of which got the hazardous markets that would benefit from such a technology in first place.

Some issues with this:

1. I can't overwrite the Population building to add Domed Cities as an upgrade because it's part of vanilla. If I overwrite it, other mods that do the same will be incompatible. Further, Domed Cities is not a straight upgrade - the ground defense malus makes invasions trivially easy once the orbital station is destroyed. This mod is intended to be used in conjunction with Nexerelin, where the player's planets face the threat of invasions.

2. If Domed Cities is disrupted (by a raid, for example), the ground defense malus remains. From a lore standpoint, this represents that the dome is "breached", not that everyone magically resettled for the duration of the disruption.

3. I don't think requiring a blueprint for Domed Cities makes sense from a lore standpoint since the concept behind it is relatively simple. As for why vanilla colonies don't have them, the ground defense malus makes it detrimental for planets where there is a reasonable expectation of invasion, and given the history of near-constant warfare in the sector, this is a good reason why they don't exist. Again, this mod is intended to be used alongside Nexerelin, so building Domed Cities on all your planets can backfire if you get into a war and another faction sends invasion fleets.
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Yendorc

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v6.0.0)
« Reply #1156 on: April 25, 2021, 11:56:53 AM »

Just as a heads up that the LAMP does not play nicely with your solar mirrors
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Looking at the images you posted, it appears to be working as intended. What part of it is bugged?

It's not a real bug, which is why I only mentioned it not playing nicely.

the "issue" is that you start with a 100% planet (habitable + cold)
install a lamp and get down to 95% (because I only have enoug volatiles to warm the planet up by 5%)
then you install the mirrors and nothing happens since you stay at 95% (DESPITE the mirrors alone being enough to remove cold)
you have to remove the lamp for the mirrors to do something in that scenario.

which is counterintuitive since the "+20% from volatile shortage" is there to imply that the lamp is not warm enough to counteract the cold.
which your mirrors should counteract theoretically

it's just slightly cumbersome and a hint of illogical.
And I assume that players that don't really look into things may get confused.
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v6.0.0)
« Reply #1157 on: April 25, 2021, 12:19:45 PM »

Quote
   A minituarized, variable-output fusion reactor capable of providing ample light and heat to a planet.

Safe operation requires prodigious quantities of volatiles. If the demand is not met, the reactor suffers from potentially hazardous instability, which may lead to an uncontrolled surge in output. Litigation over whether this device is of inherently unsafe design or simply used unsafely were ongoing in Domain courts at the time of the Collapse.
--Orbital Fusion Lamp description.

The "+20% from volatile shortage" is not because it's too cold. Your lamp's out of control and it's cooking the surface. Mirrors can't help you there.
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v6.0.0)
« Reply #1158 on: April 25, 2021, 12:28:01 PM »

Just as a heads up that the LAMP does not play nicely with your solar mirrors
Spoiler

[close]

Looking at the images you posted, it appears to be working as intended. What part of it is bugged?

It's not a real bug, which is why I only mentioned it not playing nicely.

the "issue" is that you start with a 100% planet (habitable + cold)
install a lamp and get down to 95% (because I only have enoug volatiles to warm the planet up by 5%)
then you install the mirrors and nothing happens since you stay at 95% (DESPITE the mirrors alone being enough to remove cold)
you have to remove the lamp for the mirrors to do something in that scenario.

which is counterintuitive since the "+20% from volatile shortage" is there to imply that the lamp is not warm enough to counteract the cold.
which your mirrors should counteract theoretically

it's just slightly cumbersome and a hint of illogical.
And I assume that players that don't really look into things may get confused.

Ah, I see what you mean now, but making it behave the way you suggest would likely be equally as confusing as the current behavior. See the post from Uhlang below.

Removing the "volatiles shortage hazard" would make the player confused when they see there's a volatiles shortage, but no noticeable effect on the market. Why would they even try to meet the volatiles demand when it has no effect? This is not a gameplay situation I want to create.

Besides, the fusion lamp and stellar reflectors are redundant assuming the conditions on the planet are possible in vanilla, so even though the interaction is weird it shouldn't come up much.

Quote
   A minituarized, variable-output fusion reactor capable of providing ample light and heat to a planet.

Safe operation requires prodigious quantities of volatiles. If the demand is not met, the reactor suffers from potentially hazardous instability, which may lead to an uncontrolled surge in output. Litigation over whether this device is of inherently unsafe design or simply used unsafely were ongoing in Domain courts at the time of the Collapse.
--Orbital Fusion Lamp description.

The "+20% from volatile shortage" is not because it's too cold. Your lamp's out of control and it's cooking the surface. Mirrors can't help you there.

Exactly.
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okj

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1159 on: April 25, 2021, 11:35:54 PM »

So because it seems you haven't fixed this yet, I have something that might help. In overlord's additional commands mod, he have a script to add in an maxed out remnant nexus, so this might be of help. If you already have other plans for this, I'm sorry to bother.
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AcaMetis

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1160 on: April 26, 2021, 02:43:56 AM »

Quote
-The Stellar Reflector Array and Ismara's Sling have no improvement or AI core bonuses right now. If anyone can think of interesting bonuses (beyond upkeep reduction or increased terraforming speed), please make a suggestion!
Probably not a great suggestion, but throwing it unto the pile anyway:

Quote
Once completed, adds the "Orbital Reflector Array" condition to the planet. This improves farming/aquaculture production by +2 and suppress the Hot, Cold and/or Poor Light conditions if they are present. If the structure is shut down, the reflectors in orbit will be removed and the benefits will disappear. Requires Domain-era artifacts to operate if Domain Archaeology is enabled.
Let it suppress very hot/cold as well? Darkness probably not, since that condition usually appears in nebulae and mirrors can't conjure light out of nothing even with an Alpha Core, but it's an option.

Actually, does it normally downgrade very hot/cold down to regular hot/cold? If not that could be an alpha core effect, maybe.
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stormturmoil

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1161 on: April 26, 2021, 03:25:18 AM »

Just seen the New update

Thanks for the Hard work, Boggled!

I admit, I'm sort of sad to see the Crustacean Job and Astral Gate Quests go: I realise there's more Quests for them to tread on the toes of, especially the Astral Gates, but they were fun and fluffy.

Also, lorewise, I could totally see the Astral Gates being a side-attempt to get a similar effect to the Domain Gates that Bypasses Galatia Academy and Especially Provost Baird's clutches...

Especially if it were now another Faction doing it/funding it on the sly, in a sort of Arms Race deal against the Hegemony. Because Almost certainly There should be those that assume that if Galatia Academy succeeds, the Hegemony will exploit the Domain Gates ruthlessly, and cut everyone else out...

I realise that Game-wise, your options are limited, and so you can't really approach this in a fully story-only Manner, and of course we don't know where the story is actually going, But it just raised a few thoughts I found interesting.

 I admit, I really Liked the interactions being able to build (and gift/rent) the Astral Gates created, and it made sense (to me) that you could BuildAstral Gates, but only Use Domain Gates but not Build them (since the things are regarded as being indestructable and inscrutable in their in-game descriptions)

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Uhlang

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1162 on: April 26, 2021, 03:59:17 AM »

I didn't see any details in the description, so I have to ask... How does normal terraforming work now?
Is it the same as it was before the point system? As in...
-Jungle/Tundra world + shades/mirrors + time = Terran world
-Frozen/Cryovolcanic world + mirrors + time = Water world
-Desert/Arid world + shades + sling/processing + time = Terran world
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Szasz

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1163 on: April 26, 2021, 04:37:01 AM »

I didn't see any details in the description, so I have to ask... How does normal terraforming work now?
Is it the same as it was before the point system? As in...
-Jungle/Tundra world + shades/mirrors + time = Terran world
-Frozen/Cryovolcanic world + mirrors + time = Water world
-Desert/Arid world + shades + sling/processing + time = Terran world
Just tried out of curiosity. It works indeed pretty much as the old one but instead of multiple structures contributing to a generic terraforming counter (old way) EUTECK handles everything instead and you can just pick target planet type then wait for the completion time (400ish days), simple as that. Additional targets include maximizing resources, adding mild climate and such.
Not bad at all but I don't like the balance changes that vanilla brought and while station construction is invaluable, I cannot use this mod without qualms of conscience as spamming domed cities or astropoli with god-tier space defences are already too op. Also how does CHAMELEON expose decivilized subcultures? I'm sticking to its description and I don't think they have any encryptions to crack, they are decivilized after all.
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1164 on: April 26, 2021, 05:46:47 AM »

Also how does CHAMELEON expose decivilized subcultures? I'm sticking to its description and I don't think they have any encryptions to crack, they are decivilized after all.
I'm pretty sure "decivilized" in Starsector doesn't necessarily mean "completely without technology." They wouldn't be able to exist on non-habitable worlds if that was the case.
And hell, it's a supercomputer. Even if there's nothing to decrypt, it can probably track the entire population and single out the fringe-dwellers who cause trouble, letting it find their enclaves and get your forces to neutralize them.
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Szasz

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1165 on: April 26, 2021, 06:03:29 AM »

Also how does CHAMELEON expose decivilized subcultures? I'm sticking to its description and I don't think they have any encryptions to crack, they are decivilized after all.
I'm pretty sure "decivilized" in Starsector doesn't necessarily mean "completely without technology." They wouldn't be able to exist on non-habitable worlds if that was the case.
And hell, it's a supercomputer. Even if there's nothing to decrypt, it can probably track the entire population and single out the fringe-dwellers who cause trouble, letting it find their enclaves and get your forces to neutralize them.
I guess CHAMELEON can function as advanced surveillance , however given the substantial stability penalty that remains present on a 10^6 size colony due to the decivilized subpopulation condition, the subpopulation is significant enough in numbers to meet inability from residents (government included) to deal with the disturbance, trouble and fear they cause. Talking about forces for neutralization assumes military police or commando presence which was exactly the previous implementation of eliminating said condition.
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tiago_gomestrf

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1166 on: April 26, 2021, 06:05:44 AM »

Thank you boggled for the quick update
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tiago_gomestrf

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1167 on: April 26, 2021, 07:06:53 AM »

Boggled i was testing the new terraforming system and i think found an unintentional feature, if you use the boggled_euteck item and use to maximize all resources it also spawns vast ruins, which doesnt make a lot of sense. The new terraforming system in my opinion is too broken, because you just need to have the item and wait 400 days to have a planet with max resources. Would it be possible to have a option in the config files to use the old terraforming system, i liked that one and it was more balanced.Even then, thank you for updating this mod.
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tiago_gomestrf

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1168 on: April 26, 2021, 07:49:20 AM »

For those who share the same opinion it seems the old version 0.9.1a works on 0.95, i tested it and had no problems, to enable the mod you need to go to terraforming files and open the mod info and change mod version 0.9.1a to 0.95.RC15.I advise to go to mod configs files and disable the astral gate content and skyhook anchor as they become unnecessary in the newest version of the game.
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1169 on: April 26, 2021, 08:35:05 AM »

Quote
-The Stellar Reflector Array and Ismara's Sling have no improvement or AI core bonuses right now. If anyone can think of interesting bonuses (beyond upkeep reduction or increased terraforming speed), please make a suggestion!
Probably not a great suggestion, but throwing it unto the pile anyway:

Quote
Once completed, adds the "Orbital Reflector Array" condition to the planet. This improves farming/aquaculture production by +2 and suppress the Hot, Cold and/or Poor Light conditions if they are present. If the structure is shut down, the reflectors in orbit will be removed and the benefits will disappear. Requires Domain-era artifacts to operate if Domain Archaeology is enabled.
Let it suppress very hot/cold as well? Darkness probably not, since that condition usually appears in nebulae and mirrors can't conjure light out of nothing even with an Alpha Core, but it's an option.

Actually, does it normally downgrade very hot/cold down to regular hot/cold? If not that could be an alpha core effect, maybe.

I don't want the mirrors to suppress extreme heat/cold. This is because (1) in vanilla the solar array condition only suppresses cold and poor light, (2) the fusion lamp suppresses extreme cold so I want that to remain a unique feature for that item, (3) reducing extreme hot/cold to regular hot/cold is not compatible with the suppression mechanic.

So because it seems you haven't fixed this yet, I have something that might help. In overlord's additional commands mod, he have a script to add in an maxed out remnant nexus, so this might be of help. If you already have other plans for this, I'm sorry to bother.

Are you using 7.0.0? I think I fixed this in that update!

Just seen the New update

Thanks for the Hard work, Boggled!

I admit, I'm sort of sad to see the Crustacean Job and Astral Gate Quests go: I realise there's more Quests for them to tread on the toes of, especially the Astral Gates, but they were fun and fluffy.

Also, lorewise, I could totally see the Astral Gates being a side-attempt to get a similar effect to the Domain Gates that Bypasses Galatia Academy and Especially Provost Baird's clutches...

Especially if it were now another Faction doing it/funding it on the sly, in a sort of Arms Race deal against the Hegemony. Because Almost certainly There should be those that assume that if Galatia Academy succeeds, the Hegemony will exploit the Domain Gates ruthlessly, and cut everyone else out...

I realise that Game-wise, your options are limited, and so you can't really approach this in a fully story-only Manner, and of course we don't know where the story is actually going, But it just raised a few thoughts I found interesting.

 I admit, I really Liked the interactions being able to build (and gift/rent) the Astral Gates created, and it made sense (to me) that you could BuildAstral Gates, but only Use Domain Gates but not Build them (since the things are regarded as being indestructable and inscrutable in their in-game descriptions)



I understand that some players enjoyed the two quests, and I know I spent a lot of time trying to write interesting dialogue, but I don't think the quality of my quests compares favorably to the vanilla ones in 0.95a. Maybe they will make a return in the future, but updating them for 0.95a would take a very large amount of development time, and I don't think that's justified given the quality problems, lore compatibility problems, and the lack of necessity in 0.95a.

As for the Astral gates, they're basically in the same boat as the quests. The implementation is vastly inferior to the 0.95a vanilla gates, and updating it for 0.95a would take a large amount of development time. I know some players enjoyed them, but keeping them in the mod just isn't worth the effort required.

I didn't see any details in the description, so I have to ask... How does normal terraforming work now?
Is it the same as it was before the point system? As in...
-Jungle/Tundra world + shades/mirrors + time = Terran world
-Frozen/Cryovolcanic world + mirrors + time = Water world
-Desert/Arid world + shades + sling/processing + time = Terran world

With default settings, you just put the E.U.T.E.C.K. in the Genelab (on a habitable planet) and it will create a Paradise world. The tooltip on the Genelab will explain that you need to suppress extreme temperatures and poor light in order to terraform, and you'll need water for desert planets.

With non-default settings, it's the same thing, except you can use the options in the colony interaction menu to select a project - then you can make (almost) any planet type you want. The water/temperature/light requirements are also removed.

I didn't see any details in the description, so I have to ask... How does normal terraforming work now?
Is it the same as it was before the point system? As in...
-Jungle/Tundra world + shades/mirrors + time = Terran world
-Frozen/Cryovolcanic world + mirrors + time = Water world
-Desert/Arid world + shades + sling/processing + time = Terran world
Just tried out of curiosity. It works indeed pretty much as the old one but instead of multiple structures contributing to a generic terraforming counter (old way) EUTECK handles everything instead and you can just pick target planet type then wait for the completion time (400ish days), simple as that. Additional targets include maximizing resources, adding mild climate and such.
Not bad at all but I don't like the balance changes that vanilla brought and while station construction is invaluable, I cannot use this mod without qualms of conscience as spamming domed cities or astropoli with god-tier space defences are already too op. Also how does CHAMELEON expose decivilized subcultures? I'm sticking to its description and I don't think they have any encryptions to crack, they are decivilized after all.

Fortunately you can use the settings file (and industries.csv) to adjust the balance to your liking. You can increase the hazard rating on stations, or increase the upkeep costs on Domed Cities.

Uhlang makes a good point about the decivilized subpopulation. I think the description for decivilized planets indicates that there's small arms fire on the surface, so while the government has collapsed, they're still using technology.

Think of CHAMELEON as real-life government surveillance on steroids (it's even named after ECHELON!). Imagine if the US government had Alpha Cores looking at all the spy satellite footage and NSA internet logs, and had quantum computers to break encryption (ex. on Tor/VPNs). Terrorists and criminals would basically be completely unable to operate. It wouldn't even take a significant military or police presence to stop them - just a few well-placed guided missiles and some special forces troops.

Boggled i was testing the new terraforming system and i think found an unintentional feature, if you use the boggled_euteck item and use to maximize all resources it also spawns vast ruins, which doesnt make a lot of sense. The new terraforming system in my opinion is too broken, because you just need to have the item and wait 400 days to have a planet with max resources. Would it be possible to have a option in the config files to use the old terraforming system, i liked that one and it was more balanced.Even then, thank you for updating this mod.

I would consider ruins a resource since they're used to produce artifacts by the Domain Archaeology industry.

As far as the balance goes, unrestricted terraforming is intended to allow the player to do whatever they want. If you think maxed out resources is overpowered (hint: it is!), then just don't use that project! I understand that some players will prefer the previous implementation, but each person seems to want something different with terraforming and it's not possible to please everyone.
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