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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.7)  (Read 1071117 times)

boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #735 on: July 29, 2020, 10:43:59 AM »

Also, I can no longer build hydroponics on astropoli.  I can still build them on mining and fuel stations, though.  Is this intentional or a bug?

Is it the hydroponics industry from my mod (has to be enabled in settings), or one from a different mod?

if we here already.

The suggestion. Bad one, but who knows?

All planet type changing projects removes conditions that new type can not host and add conditions it can not exist without (temperature, atmosphere), but do not add recources it can potentially have. In other words, if you terraform barren into terran, it will gain normal temperature, atmosphere but not farmland, volitiles or organics. You have to improve that with a separate projects, similar we have "mild climate" now. Those projects always increase those values by 1 (not above maximum, ofc.) or add minimal amount if there was no of it.

Projects can be applied even on non-terraformed worlds, that have those resource values below maximal to it type. Example: You have desert planet with no farmland at all, so you can add it with project, so it became "poor farmland"(-1). IIRC maximal farmland for deserts - adequate(0), but could be wrong here, so you can launch that project again, but only once. When you have this farmland (0) desert world, you can terraform it into terran, and farmland (0) will remain intact, so you need two more farmland projects to reach "bountiful" resource level.

1. Yes, it will add additional steps, players not always would like to do and confused of it. Serious weakness.
2. It makes more options for terraforming inside existing planet type, alongside with "normalize temperature" and "normalize atmosphere". Serious plus, especially if it is non-standard type.

EDIT: numerous Typos.

Many players don't read the tooltips or mod guide. If they terraform a planet and it has no resources afterwards, that will be extremely confusing and counter intuitive. How could a terran planet lack farmland, when by definition arable land like forests must exist for a planet to be considered terran?

The inability to adjust conditions on a gas giant or on Unknown Skies planets without completing a type change project is a major downside for my current implementation. I can't think of a good way to fix this - the main problem is that I would have to introduce a whole set of convoluted rules for which planets can have which condition adjustments. There will inevitably be disagreements and confusion about those rules, which would be worse than the current issues related to temperatures on gas giants, US planets, etc.
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Chikanuk

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #736 on: July 29, 2020, 12:12:06 PM »

I agree with your post as a whole, just a quick note:
Quote
How could a terran planet lack farmland, when by definition arable land like forests must exist for a planet to be considered terran?
Quite simple - for example soil condition can be very badly suited for species what humans grow. Or ecosystem can be extremely hostile for such species. Many reasons.
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Yunru

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #737 on: July 30, 2020, 03:14:22 AM »

Quite simple - for example soil condition can be very badly suited for species what humans grow. Or ecosystem can be extremely hostile for such species. Many reasons.
But you terraformed it, why would any of those apply when you're in charge of what soil and species exist?

Chikanuk

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #738 on: July 30, 2020, 01:57:40 PM »

Well, maybe you change it in a wrong way, or simply cant change soil condition at all. After all - even with this mod you far behind in technology to Domain terraforming capabilities.
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NephilimNexus

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #739 on: July 30, 2020, 01:58:08 PM »

Is it the hydroponics industry from my mod (has to be enabled in settings), or one from a different mod?

Ah yes, that was the problem!  I forgot that whenever I update it resets all the settings.  I had them on, and incorrectly assumed they still were after updating.  My mistake!
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NephilimNexus

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #740 on: July 30, 2020, 02:13:30 PM »

Quite simple - for example soil condition can be very badly suited for species what humans grow. Or ecosystem can be extremely hostile for such species. Many reasons.

1) The planet's native life all evolved with left hand DNA.

2) The terraforming technology did it's best, but the native plantlife remains toxic to humans.

3) Changing the temperature and atmosphere so much caused microbial seeding to go nuts and the microbes killed off all large scale plants.  Only algae survives, and the animals willing to eat it.

4) What happened to the Vikings in Iceland (read Guns, Germs and Steel).  TLDR, the food was there, they just didn't use any of it because of weird cultural phobias.  So you terraformed a planet and now it is chock full of fifty pound, ten foot long, highly nutritious edible earthworms.  Yummy!  Wait, where are you going?

5) Oh crap, we forgot to add wolves!  Rabbit swarms devour everything as soon as it sprout.

6) Plant life grows great here, especially the native Triffids.

Etc...
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #741 on: July 31, 2020, 08:21:40 AM »

Quote
How could a terran planet lack farmland, when by definition arable land like forests must exist for a planet to be considered terran?

Easy. Ability to farm any herb or animal culture is something more than soil, air and water. Farming is not just "put a seed in a soil, wait until harvest time". And it's not even it, if you add fertilizing, meliorating and all sort of environmental protection. Ecosystem could be Terran-stable with numerous species even human-friendly, form a different variety of biomes, but if planetary biological productivity is low - you can't do any farming, as if you start - it just collapse. There was some history episodes, when humanity tries to establish farming on low-productive local biogeocenosises. There was a fertile soil, water, mild climate, but all attempts to grow a crops there failed after a few successfully years, as system was not able to regenerate what humans take from it. Yes, intensive fertilizing and additional artificial stabilizing of that kind of ecosystems works, but it makes farming unprofitable cos' of much higher maintenance, compared to high-productive biosystems.

P.S. That is for "how could Terran planet lack of farmland". For the suggestion - it probably wasn't good from a beginning. Obvious reasons.
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #742 on: July 31, 2020, 11:45:05 AM »

Is it really a terran world if it doesn't have land that's welcoming to plant life? I feel like arable soil would be just another part of the terraforming project.

Though, there's reason to believe that Earth's land was mostly devoid of complex plant life until certain fungi prepared the ground for them*, so I'd say it would make sense if terran and jungle worlds required the Eisen Division(which would bioengineer such fungi,) but I know that Boggled doesn't want to lock any project behind any building.

*Reference video:
Spoiler
Here
[close]
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 11:52:03 AM by Uhlang »
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #743 on: July 31, 2020, 01:27:10 PM »

I feel like arable soil would be just another part of the terraforming project.

Again. Soil could be great and host a lot of plants and a lot of animals too. Full self-sustained ecosystem, stable while closed. Do you understand what farming is? It is a process, when you take big amount of biomass from a system and return much less back. You export it to another planets, remember? If an ecosystem, starting from a soil bacteria and finishing with top predator, unable to replenish biomass with respective speed - you will make it a desert after a few cycles, even if it was a blooming garden before.

Is it possible to make terran transformation initially using a high-productive ecosystems, that grants farming potential from a very beginning? Have no idea. Really.
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #744 on: July 31, 2020, 02:10:53 PM »

The buildings blocks of life(like carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen) aren't very rare in the Milky Way. I imagine that the upkeep of Farming as an industry covers the cost of operations to replenish the biomass used.
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Chikanuk

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #745 on: July 31, 2020, 03:33:51 PM »

If this true - why farming soil "resource" even a thing? Just colonize random world, almost any will have cabon, oxygen and hydrogen.
And in lore you need exactly "the right soil" to do farming.
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #746 on: July 31, 2020, 04:42:04 PM »

Just because you have the building blocks of life doesn't mean you can build life.
You also need the tools and the right environment.

Consider Venus. Venus' atmosphere is basically made of carbon dioxide(CO2), and there's trace amounts of water(H2O) vapor. That's Carbon, Oxygen, and Hydrogen covered. Does that mean that Venus has life? Sure as hell no, but its CO2 can be brought to Earth, where the plants can use it in photosynthesis to make it into a CarboHydrate(CH2O), effectively making it a part of the planet's biomass.
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Unnamed_Shadow

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #747 on: July 31, 2020, 06:14:17 PM »

Considering the discussions about farming and everything.

I think Hydroponics need to be active by default IMO. That way you could have some Farming on Barren or Inhospitable Planets.
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boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.4.1)
« Reply #748 on: August 01, 2020, 07:57:09 AM »

Considering the discussions about farming and everything.

I think Hydroponics need to be active by default IMO. That way you could have some Farming on Barren or Inhospitable Planets.

I only implemented hydroponics due to popular demand from players. Personally I think enabling it makes the game worse because it simplifies colony planning and ruins the lore/RP aspect of having a farming world. If you look through the files for vanilla starsector, it appears the developers started working on a vanilla hydroponics industry, but stopped, possibly because they also realized that it would detract from the gameplay.

Since I don't have any way to obtain reliable statistics about what percent of players ultimately enable hydroponics, and what their views are about whether it's a good addition, I think I'm going to keep it a non-default option for now.
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mora

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.3.1)
« Reply #749 on: August 01, 2020, 08:48:26 AM »


The below edits to your code should result in only the CampaignTerrainAPI that the player fleet is located inside of being deleted. I haven't tested it, so you might have to make minor changes to get it to compile. Hope this helps!

Code: java
runcode SectorEntityToken fleet = Global.getSector().getPlayerFleet();
    List<SectorEntityToken> sectorEntityTokens = fleet.getContainingLocation().getAllEntities();

    for(int i = 0; i < sectoryEntityTokens.size(); i++)
    {
        if(sectorEntityTokens.get(i) instanceof CampaignTerrainAPI)
        {
            if(((CampaignTerrainAPI)sectorEntityTokens.get(i)).getPlugin().containsEntity(fleet))
            {
            fleet.getContainingLocation().removeEntity((SectorEntityToken)sectorEntityTokens.get(i));
            }
        }
    }
I can't get this to run in the console but if this does, would this script delete non-volatile debris fields? Or is it impossible even with power of scripts?
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