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Author Topic: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.7)  (Read 1070417 times)

lethargie

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #570 on: June 09, 2020, 07:25:38 PM »

is there a way to remove "thin atmosphere with this mod?
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boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #571 on: June 10, 2020, 06:19:28 AM »

is there a way to remove "thin atmosphere with this mod?

When you complete any planet type change project the thin atmosphere condition will be removed.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #572 on: June 10, 2020, 08:57:44 AM »

Quote
The player can already obtain an infinite amount of AI cores by farming high threat remnant systems. This is just an alternative way to obtain infinite AI cores which also costs money and takes up industry slots on your planets.

Now, when I'm sober, I'll try to correct my own words, because now I see translation was not perfect.

Infinite AI cores are not the problem. As you mentioned, player able to farm remnants for infinite cores, and nothing wrong here.

Infinite process, not the infinite result, is the problem. Player able to arrange everything "in a right way" and then not be involved into process at all. It is just one more background process, player does not need to manage, and I believe he should manage it, if not constantly, but from time to time. Similar to vanilla pirate activity - from time to time player have to take care of it, even if it's boring it is an activity change.

Need a better example? I have it. Industrial evolution mod have supercomputer industry. Initially it was exactly the same infinite process, as Kletka simulators is. Many players suggest it is too OP, so SirHartley makes it consume AI cores. That kind of "nerf" is rather decorative, as players, who build this expensive structure, designed to be effective only to multiple-colony systems, are probably already able to farm remnant and have plenty of cores to supply that industry for decades. But not infinity. So player have to track, if he supplied enough Ai cores to his supercomputers for next 30 years. One more thing to manually manage.

Mentioned "add consumables to structure" solution won't work on Kletka simulators, 'tho. And I do not know, what exactly can help.
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boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #573 on: June 10, 2020, 09:43:24 AM »

Quote
The player can already obtain an infinite amount of AI cores by farming high threat remnant systems. This is just an alternative way to obtain infinite AI cores which also costs money and takes up industry slots on your planets.

Now, when I'm sober, I'll try to correct my own words, because now I see translation was not perfect.

Infinite AI cores are not the problem. As you mentioned, player able to farm remnants for infinite cores, and nothing wrong here.

Infinite process, not the infinite result, is the problem. Player able to arrange everything "in a right way" and then not be involved into process at all. It is just one more background process, player does not need to manage, and I believe he should manage it, if not constantly, but from time to time. Similar to vanilla pirate activity - from time to time player have to take care of it, even if it's boring it is an activity change.

Need a better example? I have it. Industrial evolution mod have supercomputer industry. Initially it was exactly the same infinite process, as Kletka simulators is. Many players suggest it is too OP, so SirHartley makes it consume AI cores. That kind of "nerf" is rather decorative, as players, who build this expensive structure, designed to be effective only to multiple-colony systems, are probably already able to farm remnant and have plenty of cores to supply that industry for decades. But not infinity. So player have to track, if he supplied enough Ai cores to his supercomputers for next 30 years. One more thing to manually manage.

Mentioned "add consumables to structure" solution won't work on Kletka simulators, 'tho. And I do not know, what exactly can help.

I see your point, but my goal with the Kletka simulator was to remove an aspect of the game that many players want to just automate once they reach a certain power level. If a player doesn't want to automate the acquisition of AI cores, then they can farm them like usual. I'm not sure what mechanic I could use to satisfy those who both want to use the Kletka simulator but don't want to fully automate the process.
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Kiryuu

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #574 on: June 10, 2020, 12:31:04 PM »



I see your point, but my goal with the Kletka simulator was to remove an aspect of the game that many players want to just automate once they reach a certain power level. If a player doesn't want to automate the acquisition of AI cores, then they can farm them like usual. I'm not sure what mechanic I could use to satisfy those who both want to use the Kletka simulator but don't want to fully automate the process.

I think that adding a consumable option to the structure would work. For example: AI lasts a set amount of time before it becomes "corrupted" or damaged in some way. Say, 12 months. That way, if you add an Alpha Core, it would last for 12 attempts, at average rates, that should be 3-4 Alpha cores, 3-4 Betas, and 3-4 Gammas, with 1-2 months not producing anything. It builds on itself, but the player would have to provide maintenance to the structure every so often.

I use 12 months as a stand in for time, but it should work with shorter periods, say 6 months, and then it becomes a gamble. You only have limited chances of getting an Alpha back,but you also have the chance of getting more than you put in.
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iamlenb

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #575 on: June 11, 2020, 01:21:26 PM »

I think that having the Kletka simulator pop cores into existence based on chance works for your design goal, but I think that there's more that can be done with it.  If, like the supercomputer in industry evolution, it had it's own resource bin or if it could draw from the market storage/stockpile, it required both rare metals and domain artifacts AND it required a number of lower tier cores to build up a single higher tier core, then we have to make choices.

Do we build it on a world with 3 slots for mining/refining/Kletka combo?  If not, how do we get enough rare metal to the stocks on a regular basis?  Do we fill the storage with cores or use them elsewhere?  Beta cores are a meaningful choice now with Industry Evolution and I'd like to have some FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) about my decisions, especially if I can't simply optimize and forget about it.

Finally, I'd love it if a remnant raid came knocking on the door every time an alpha was born.  Kick in the jump point door and lay waste to every colony in the system.  Claim every core in use.  Empty out the storage of cores.  Disrupt every industry utilizing a core.  Subvert the colony where the hapless player put an Alpha Core in charge - all of a sudden the orbital station is replaced with a Remnant station that starts spitting out Ordos.  Turn my system into a deserted wasteland ruled by ruthless and invincible machines that I put in charge.  Make the player scream about the unfairness of it all.

I dream big...  ragequit for the win.
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Nextia

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #576 on: June 11, 2020, 04:11:57 PM »

So, I'm quite far into a Nex playthrough with a crap tonne of mods at the mo (just over 18 years), and I can't for the life of me remember how to start the blue lobster seeding quest. I know it was something to do with pirates, but that's all I remember.

Any help?  ???
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iamlenb

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #577 on: June 11, 2020, 04:58:23 PM »

So, I'm quite far into a Nex playthrough with a crap tonne of mods at the mo (just over 18 years), and I can't for the life of me remember how to start the blue lobster seeding quest. I know it was something to do with pirates, but that's all I remember.

Any help?  ???

One of the pirate bases, I think it's the one named after a shadow in Latin.  I could be wrong,  There should be a quest available at the bar.  If you have not modded the number of bar quests in starsector config, you might have to come back several times for it to pop.
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Nextia

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #578 on: June 11, 2020, 05:01:31 PM »

So, I'm quite far into a Nex playthrough with a crap tonne of mods at the mo (just over 18 years), and I can't for the life of me remember how to start the blue lobster seeding quest. I know it was something to do with pirates, but that's all I remember.

Any help?  ???

One of the pirate bases, I think it's the one named after a shadow in Latin.  I could be wrong,  There should be a quest available at the bar.  If you have not modded the number of bar quests in starsector config, you might have to come back several times for it to pop.

Do you mean Umbra? I think I've long since invaded that and have it claimed for myself, would I still be able to obtain the quest?
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Kiryuu

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #579 on: June 11, 2020, 09:30:31 PM »

Do you mean Umbra? I think I've long since invaded that and have it claimed for myself, would I still be able to obtain the quest?

Yeah, that's the one. AFAIK, yes. From my current playthrough, I think I triggered the quest after I conquered it.
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boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #580 on: June 12, 2020, 04:21:47 AM »

I think that having the Kletka simulator pop cores into existence based on chance works for your design goal, but I think that there's more that can be done with it.  If, like the supercomputer in industry evolution, it had it's own resource bin or if it could draw from the market storage/stockpile, it required both rare metals and domain artifacts AND it required a number of lower tier cores to build up a single higher tier core, then we have to make choices.

Do we build it on a world with 3 slots for mining/refining/Kletka combo?  If not, how do we get enough rare metal to the stocks on a regular basis?  Do we fill the storage with cores or use them elsewhere?  Beta cores are a meaningful choice now with Industry Evolution and I'd like to have some FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) about my decisions, especially if I can't simply optimize and forget about it.

Finally, I'd love it if a remnant raid came knocking on the door every time an alpha was born.  Kick in the jump point door and lay waste to every colony in the system.  Claim every core in use.  Empty out the storage of cores.  Disrupt every industry utilizing a core.  Subvert the colony where the hapless player put an Alpha Core in charge - all of a sudden the orbital station is replaced with a Remnant station that starts spitting out Ordos.  Turn my system into a deserted wasteland ruled by ruthless and invincible machines that I put in charge.  Make the player scream about the unfairness of it all.

I dream big...  ragequit for the win.

The problem with it drawing resources from storage is that the supply/demand system that vanilla industries utilize already handles that. It would be confusing to the player to have some industries demanding commodities to function, and others requiring the player to manually store resources on the planet.

As far as raids are concerned, the Kletka simulator generates a huge amount of pather interest. I think pather attacks are bugged right now, but if the strength of pather attacks was proportional to the pather interest, the Kletka simulator would require player attention now and again - to stop pathers from destroying the colony. I'm waiting to see how this gets implemented in future versions of Starsector. If pather raids don't become a serious threat, perhaps I will implement by own "remnant interest" mechanic...
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Serenitis

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #581 on: June 12, 2020, 04:55:52 AM »

Some things to consider...
None of this is particularly pressing or vital though.

Terraforming options adding volatiles
While this is a very interesting and useful feature, I think it may be a little too "good".
Changing a planet to Frozen generates a volatiles resource with a value of +2, the highest possible.
While this could be explained as uncovering or otherwise making accessible new exploitable areas, this trivialises the presence of volatiles in a system removing part of the balance required to locate a suitable colony site.

There is already a precedent for generating resources "out of nothing" in this mod: Mining stations.
They generate expolitable ore resources with a value of +0. Enough to sell profitably, but not enough to run industry on it's own.

Would suggest that new Frozen worlds generate a volatiles resource with a value of +0 to bring it into line with the already extant Mining stations.
And all other instances of terraforming generating volatiles creates a -1 resource.
(-1 volatiles is still incredibly profitable.)

A sort-of counter to this, would be if you manage to find a means of dynamically generating a resource randomly from a specified range of outcomes. That would alleviate the concerns about always being able to ignore a resource due to being able to create it "on demand".

There's a similar thing with Food and Organics, although I don't really consider that an issue as they are somewhat unique in that neither are impressively profitable, so higher value resources don't make such a pronounced difference.
And both are "industrially" useful even at -1, so thier actual resource concentration is largely meaningless. If they're present at all they're enough.

Terraforming options
I would like to see the addition of Arid as an option for terraforming.
While Desert is similar to Arid, it is not the same. Deserts are considered only marginally habitable, while Arid is fully habitable. And it would be nice to have that option available if the player wants a hot dry option for improvement. (Jungles and Oceans being notably un-dry.)

From a technical standpoint, the inclusion of another entry in the selection list shouldn't overly clutter the screen. Although any more than +1 might run that risk.
(RIP Eccentric.)

Another thing to think about is possbily limiting the available terraforming choices based of the current temperature of the planet in question.
So it would not be possible to change a hot world into Frozen or Tundra without first adding shades. (These types cannot exist in vanilla with the hot condition.)
And likewise would not be possible to change cold worlds into Desert or Jungle (or Arid) without first adding mirrors. (These types cannot exist in vanilla with the cold condition.)
The rationale being that the current system doesn't really need the reflectors all that much, as every option is available from every starting point. Which itself leads to oddities such as a Frozen planet in a close orbit of a bright star with the "very cold" condition, but no shades.
Or hot Jungle planets in the outer system with no mirrors.
I would like to see the reflectors play an integral part of the terraforming process as they did in previous versions. (This current verison is a much better system, except for this one part where you've accidentally marginalised one of the coolest features - it's currently easier to use the systemwide options.)

The challenge here would be communicating the requirement for this extra step to the player.
Text on the terraforming options screen would likely be the easiest way.
Although "greying out" locked options with a "you need to build some reflectors" appended to the end of each one possibly being a slicker approach.

This mod has come a long way. And even as-is is incredibly impressive.
Trully excellent work!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 04:57:57 AM by Serenitis »
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boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #582 on: June 12, 2020, 07:56:43 AM »

Some things to consider...
None of this is particularly pressing or vital though.

Terraforming options adding volatiles
While this is a very interesting and useful feature, I think it may be a little too "good".
Changing a planet to Frozen generates a volatiles resource with a value of +2, the highest possible.
While this could be explained as uncovering or otherwise making accessible new exploitable areas, this trivialises the presence of volatiles in a system removing part of the balance required to locate a suitable colony site.

There is already a precedent for generating resources "out of nothing" in this mod: Mining stations.
They generate expolitable ore resources with a value of +0. Enough to sell profitably, but not enough to run industry on it's own.

Would suggest that new Frozen worlds generate a volatiles resource with a value of +0 to bring it into line with the already extant Mining stations.
And all other instances of terraforming generating volatiles creates a -1 resource.
(-1 volatiles is still incredibly profitable.)

A sort-of counter to this, would be if you manage to find a means of dynamically generating a resource randomly from a specified range of outcomes. That would alleviate the concerns about always being able to ignore a resource due to being able to create it "on demand".

There's a similar thing with Food and Organics, although I don't really consider that an issue as they are somewhat unique in that neither are impressively profitable, so higher value resources don't make such a pronounced difference.
And both are "industrially" useful even at -1, so thier actual resource concentration is largely meaningless. If they're present at all they're enough.

I see your point about how the resource levels on some of the planet transformations may be too high. The problem is that terraforming costs a lot of time and credits which could be used to simply conquer high-value colonies in the core worlds. The bonus from terraforming has to be high to justify this cost. Plus, many players expect custom-terraformed planets to be superior to most of the randomly generated ones.

With regard to frozen planets, like you said, +0 versus +2 volatiles is not a huge difference once the colony grows to a decent size and has AI cores. Why lower the value and disappoint some players who spent time terraforming their world?

With regard to volatiles on terran planets, I originally didn't have them there, but I was worried that without them terraformed terran planets would always be inferior to terran-eccentric worlds like Eventide that have all four mining resources, and players would be disappointed by this. I could always have both terran and terran-eccentric terraforming options, but terran-eccentric would just be superior in most cases once the colony reaches a large enough size.

Making the resources dynamic would probably be a bad idea because players will be confused why their planet doesn't have the resources they expected it to have after they spent a lot of time terraforming it.

Terraforming options
I would like to see the addition of Arid as an option for terraforming.
While Desert is similar to Arid, it is not the same. Deserts are considered only marginally habitable, while Arid is fully habitable. And it would be nice to have that option available if the player wants a hot dry option for improvement. (Jungles and Oceans being notably un-dry.)

From a technical standpoint, the inclusion of another entry in the selection list shouldn't overly clutter the screen. Although any more than +1 might run that risk.
(RIP Eccentric.)

Another thing to think about is possbily limiting the available terraforming choices based of the current temperature of the planet in question.
So it would not be possible to change a hot world into Frozen or Tundra without first adding shades. (These types cannot exist in vanilla with the hot condition.)
And likewise would not be possible to change cold worlds into Desert or Jungle (or Arid) without first adding mirrors. (These types cannot exist in vanilla with the cold condition.)
The rationale being that the current system doesn't really need the reflectors all that much, as every option is available from every starting point. Which itself leads to oddities such as a Frozen planet in a close orbit of a bright star with the "very cold" condition, but no shades.
Or hot Jungle planets in the outer system with no mirrors.
I would like to see the reflectors play an integral part of the terraforming process as they did in previous versions. (This current verison is a much better system, except for this one part where you've accidentally marginalised one of the coolest features - it's currently easier to use the systemwide options.)

The challenge here would be communicating the requirement for this extra step to the player.
Text on the terraforming options screen would likely be the easiest way.
Although "greying out" locked options with a "you need to build some reflectors" appended to the end of each one possibly being a slicker approach.

The arid transformation has been requested several times and I think I'll replace the desert option with it. I want to use the last slot for the arcology/hive world type that I'm currently working on. Thanks for that texture!

I know that some players are disappointed by the simplicity of the new terraforming system compared to the old one, but overall the complaints about the complexity in the old system were so prevalent that I don't want to reintroduce requirements related to temperature, water, etc. Experienced players may prefer them, but I don't want to create a frustrating experience for first-time players.

Players can always "role play" by building reflectors before starting terraforming if they want to adhere to a higher level of realism. Also, everyone has different ideas of realism. For example, things like the greenhouse effect, albedo, biosphere, etc. can alter temperatures on a planet without using stellar reflectors. If I require reflectors for certain transformations, I will have people complaining about how it would be possible to do the transformation without the reflectors. It would be way too much work relative to the benefits to create multiple different terraforming systems (and the accompanying UI logic to grey things out) to satisfy everyone.

This mod has come a long way. And even as-is is incredibly impressive.
Trully excellent work!

You've been one of the biggest contributors of feedback and art assets since the beginning of this mod - thank you for all your help!

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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #583 on: June 12, 2020, 09:29:58 AM »

Quote
Players can always "role play" by building reflectors before starting terraforming if they want to adhere to a higher level of realism.

The only thing, stopping me to do it - is 12 building slots cap. I believe, I am not alone. But it is not the problem you are able to solve. Just waiting for next SS update and constantly praying.

Quote
The arid transformation has been requested several times and I think I'll replace the desert option with it.

Farewell Shai-Hulud...

And now, the real reason to make a post: suggestion. I believe, it would be real nice to have loading screen tips from TASC. Something like "If you want to open a terraforming screen, you have to add respective ability to your ability bar.", or "Do not lie to a strangers", or "You may adjust terraforming speed, station build cost and many other values in setting.cfg" and etc.
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boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.2.1)
« Reply #584 on: June 12, 2020, 09:51:29 AM »

Quote
Players can always "role play" by building reflectors before starting terraforming if they want to adhere to a higher level of realism.

The only thing, stopping me to do it - is 12 building slots cap. I believe, I am not alone. But it is not the problem you are able to solve. Just waiting for next SS update and constantly praying.

Quote
The arid transformation has been requested several times and I think I'll replace the desert option with it.

Farewell Shai-Hulud...

And now, the real reason to make a post: suggestion. I believe, it would be real nice to have loading screen tips from TASC. Something like "If you want to open a terraforming screen, you have to add respective ability to your ability bar.", or "Do not lie to a strangers", or "You may adjust terraforming speed, station build cost and many other values in setting.cfg" and etc.

Shai-Hulud will not be going anywhere. Arid worlds are considered deserts for the purposes of my mod.

Loading screen tips are a great idea. I'll put some of those in. "Do not lie to strangers" is only applicable to the gate quest - you can benefit from it in the lobster quest!
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