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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.7)  (Read 1070857 times)

Mar Sara

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #300 on: April 17, 2020, 10:59:50 PM »


An idea I had was an industry that exports exotic wildlife from jungle planets for credits. If free port is enabled, there could be additional revenue from allowing people to hunt rare/endangered animals. This would be a reason for the player to use terraforming to create a jungle world, especially if that planet lacks good resources for other industries.

Right now, I'm contemplating implementing:
-Hydroponics
-"Sin industry"
-New version of Drone Control Nexus per #4
-Organ production industry
-Wildlife export industry

Thoughts?
I for one would love to see planet type exclusive industries like big game hunting on jungle worlds, perhaps something for Inimical Biosphere? water worlds? and leisure facilities in general with different perks and drawbacks. I could see leisure for the elites consuming greater resources or having special requirements while yielding political and economic benefits, and entertainment for the common folk influencing stability or pop growth. Expanding the depth of player pirates with an illicit "Sin industry" in the system would also be... interesting.

(small fix for clarity)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 11:21:17 PM by Mar Sara »
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Unnamed_Shadow

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #301 on: April 18, 2020, 12:48:09 AM »

Perhaps this may not be related to the mod. But with the Kletka Simulators Industry maybe it could be possible to add the option to make AI Cores Officers?

That way you could put use to some of the stockpile of AI Cores in your fleet. Getting reliable commanders. And maybe even your colony fleets will use AI Cores Officers?

Again might not be related to the mod. But would be interesting to see if it could be added and would make the Kletka Simulators even more valuable as they would provide High Skill Officers for your Fleets and Colony Fleets.

Also regarding the Domain Era Artifacts from the Domain Archeology Industry. Can you also get Domain Era Artifacts from vanilla Tech Mining?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 01:14:52 AM by Unnamed_Shadow »
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #302 on: April 18, 2020, 03:01:33 AM »

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Uhlang

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #303 on: April 18, 2020, 06:13:29 AM »

An idea I had was an industry that exports exotic wildlife from jungle planets for credits. If free port is enabled, there could be additional revenue from allowing people to hunt rare/endangered animals. This would be a reason for the player to use terraforming to create a jungle world, especially if that planet lacks good resources for other industries.
I was going to mention that even after the resource update, terraformed jungle planets still seemed kinda worthless(especially compared to tundras, which are supposedly in the same tier).
I considered suggesting switching their "Abundant Organics" with the "Plentiful Organics" of terraformed terran planets. Organics is essentially petroleum, which is basically dead organic matter subjected to immense heat and pressure, so it makes sense to me that a hot planet covered in sprawling forests would have more of it than a diverse, temperate world.
If that doesn't agree with you, then yeah, an exotic wildlife industry is a good way to incentivize creating jungle worlds.
Quote
-Organ production industry
This might clash with CK Industries' Biomass Processing, but that's not a popular mod.
The idea of organ cloning, however, has already been implemented by Shadowyards. Though, that adds "Cloned Organs" as a new commodity which, unlike the vanilla Harvested Organs we know and love, is useless outside of procurement contracts.
I'm not against the idea. Just thought I'd mention that in case you aren't aware.
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boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #304 on: April 18, 2020, 06:33:09 AM »

Perhaps this may not be related to the mod. But with the Kletka Simulators Industry maybe it could be possible to add the option to make AI Cores Officers?

That way you could put use to some of the stockpile of AI Cores in your fleet. Getting reliable commanders. And maybe even your colony fleets will use AI Cores Officers?

Again might not be related to the mod. But would be interesting to see if it could be added and would make the Kletka Simulators even more valuable as they would provide High Skill Officers for your Fleets and Colony Fleets.

Also regarding the Domain Era Artifacts from the Domain Archeology Industry. Can you also get Domain Era Artifacts from vanilla Tech Mining?

AI core officers is a planned feature in vanilla Starsector so I'm not going to be adding it to this mod.

I can't replace or modify vanilla industries like Tech Mining without causing compatibility issues with other mods. Sorry!

An idea I had was an industry that exports exotic wildlife from jungle planets for credits. If free port is enabled, there could be additional revenue from allowing people to hunt rare/endangered animals. This would be a reason for the player to use terraforming to create a jungle world, especially if that planet lacks good resources for other industries.
I was going to mention that even after the resource update, terraformed jungle planets still seemed kinda worthless(especially compared to tundras, which are supposedly in the same tier).
I considered suggesting switching their "Abundant Organics" with the "Plentiful Organics" of terraformed terran planets. Organics is essentially petroleum, which is basically dead organic matter subjected to immense heat and pressure, so it makes sense to me that a hot planet covered in sprawling forests would have more of it than a diverse, temperate world.
If that doesn't agree with you, then yeah, an exotic wildlife industry is a good way to incentivize creating jungle worlds.
Quote
-Organ production industry
This might clash with CK Industries' Biomass Processing, but that's not a popular mod.
The idea of organ cloning, however, has already been implemented by Shadowyards. Though, that adds "Cloned Organs" as a new commodity which, unlike the vanilla Harvested Organs we know and love, is useless outside of procurement contracts.
I'm not against the idea. Just thought I'd mention that in case you aren't aware.

Thanks for bringing those other mods with organ production industries to my attention. I think my implementation would be a little different, so I won't just be duplicating the work of other modders.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #305 on: April 18, 2020, 07:13:17 AM »

There are bunch of really good suggestions, like "atiomic moonshine distillery", but each and any is required additional commodities to be added, which, I suppose, is not easy.

But adding an additional commodity is a half of a problem. Production is useless without consumption, and if it possible to add that to player modded buildings, I guess it is not possible to add that consumption to vanilla factions markets. And if so, there would be no market player able to use for export and gaining profits (or interact in other way).

Each time I think how to bypass that limitation, I clearly see it is not possible. My best try - proposition to add an additional structures to a random generated markets, like pirate bases, that will consume the resource. And that is a main reason why I mentioned moonshine - pirates most likely would be best consumers of that.

Dancing around existing commodities are difficult. Now I can understand why DEA was created.
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boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #306 on: April 18, 2020, 07:45:50 AM »

There are bunch of really good suggestions, like "atiomic moonshine distillery", but each and any is required additional commodities to be added, which, I suppose, is not easy.

But adding an additional commodity is a half of a problem. Production is useless without consumption, and if it possible to add that to player modded buildings, I guess it is not possible to add that consumption to vanilla factions markets. And if so, there would be no market player able to use for export and gaining profits (or interact in other way).

Each time I think how to bypass that limitation, I clearly see it is not possible. My best try - proposition to add an additional structures to a random generated markets, like pirate bases, that will consume the resource. And that is a main reason why I mentioned moonshine - pirates most likely would be best consumers of that.

Dancing around existing commodities are difficult. Now I can understand why DEA was created.

I really don't want to mess around with sector generation by adding industries that consume custom commodities to existing markets. This would likely cause endless bugs and compatibility issues that I don't want to get involved with.

Unfortunately I don't have the artistic talent to create custom ships and make my own Eridani-Utopia Terraforming Corporation custom faction mod. If someone were to make one, it might be cool to integrate it with this mod and have it start with markets that have terraforming structures and Domain-era artifact industries.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #307 on: April 18, 2020, 08:04:22 AM »

Quote
Eridani-Utopia Terraforming Corporation custom faction mod

Sounds nice. I would offer my help, but I am thief, not a creator. Kitbashing is my ceiling.
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ozemandea

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #308 on: April 18, 2020, 06:55:53 PM »

Just a suggestion, but perhaps you could add a "realistic" and lore friendly terraforming option in the settings that you can enable to make specific types of teraforming impossible and others unable to be done unless you build terraforming buildings related to them.

For instance, if there was a world with the hot or cold modifier you would not be able to remove the condition by terraforming the planet unless you had stellar reflectors in orbit, and if the reflectors where removed the condition would return in short order as the surface would again be unprotected. Or if you wanted to make a world have a mild climate you would have to construct an atmospheric processor first, and likewise the atmosphere must be constantly processed to keep the mild conditions in effect. (maybe have it so the maintenance cost is drastically lowered if you have access to domain tech, to allow players to terraform worlds into low hazard conditions without nullifying the benefits by the massive 50k maintance costs, or perhaps have it so that the terraforming buildings have lowered maintainance costs as time goes on because the planets conditions become easier to modify as they settle down)

Also make it so that you cannot change a planets type by terraforming but still allow better conditions for farming/organics/volatiles via the terraforming option, like you just terraformed the planet into the same type normally. Perhaps make it require the use of an Eisen division because you need to engineer new strains of flora, fauna, and microbes to take hold on the planet and you would need labs to create such things, unlike the reflectors and processor however, once the new strains are developed you can shut the lab down as any new developments can be handled by local lower tech labs (ie. space termites get in the space corn, colonists develop space raid, this does not need an Eisen division)

Like I said this should be an option, not what the mod should be, this just feels more in line with the lore as taking a jungle planet and suddenly turning it into a water world or vise versa in a couple years just feels so wrong to me. This feels better as your not preforming centuries of work in a couple years, your just taking existing conditions and using the degraded but still advanced tech of the sector to improve upon them, not playing god by throwing comets into water and creating continents. (you can explain why it only takes a year or two to improve the farming/organics/volatiles condition by saying that the only areas effected are those within direct use of the colony, the world will be taken over by the new strains from the Eisen division in time but that is decades away.)

Or you can do what I do and just refuse to change planet types and require the specific industries before I allow terraforming to occur, then keep them around after it is done. That is easier to do and requires no programming lol.

I will admit however that it does make exploration much more necessary and keeps good planets rare, it just makes it so that your good planets can be made better and the edge is taken off the bad ones.
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Unnamed_Shadow

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #309 on: April 19, 2020, 12:48:26 AM »

Considering this mod adds Terraforming and Station Construction.

I have been thinking about a new business that could come out of Terraforming planets. Colony Selling.

You could make a profit by colonizing a barren rock, terraforming it and then sell it to any of the other Factions.

Making Terraforming and Station Construction a Business on its own.

Would be a very interesting source of income with heavy investment but very big payoffs as well. Also you will be able to manipulate the Market by favoring Factions, etc.

I think it could be an interesting addition.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #310 on: April 19, 2020, 01:15:19 AM »

Spoiler
Considering this mod adds Terraforming and Station Construction.

I have been thinking about a new business that could come out of Terraforming planets. Colony Selling.

You could make a profit by colonizing a barren rock, terraforming it and then sell it to any of the other Factions.

Making Terraforming and Station Construction a Business on its own.

Would be a very interesting source of income with heavy investment but very big payoffs as well. Also you will be able to manipulate the Market by favoring Factions, etc.

I think it could be an interesting addition.
[close]

First reaction: Heresy. That is rather Nex suggestion. Who will spent dozen of years terraforming planet to something decent and increasing it's size to just sell it afterwards???

Second reaction: Damn! That is a way to create/increase global market value to extra gain from export!!! And once you sell the planet (or rather whole system), you do need no worry about pirates and expeditions. Some faction loose too many markets via deciv? Here you go, restored military strength! All you need is not forgot to unequipp all AI cores/NF/ST from buildings and destroy some buildings, that increase accessibility not to create to strong market opponent. Or not. Sell the AI-spam colony to haegemony just for fun!

Not sure, if Boggled interested in implementing it here, tho'.
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Hussar

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #311 on: April 19, 2020, 04:36:15 AM »

Hey Boggled, since certain other mod dropped the ball on customized station building - I'd was rather happy to discover yours some time ago (before you've merged it with terraforming even). It's been a while since i've played and even despite the pandemic I haven't much time yet to get around and dicover everything that your mod has to offer.

I have a question however about the astropolis stations. Is there a way to control their appearance? I'm asking exactly is there a way to build them in a desired style (so low/mid/high techs)? Because I've heard it's quite random, yet I'm only building my first one at the moment. Apologies if that question had been asked before.

Either way, though I've only come to experience some of the new features from your mod so far, I do enjoy them quite a lot. Finding arid lifless worlds now just makes me rub my hands with glee on a prospect of terraforming them.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #312 on: April 19, 2020, 05:11:07 AM »

I've heard it's quite random

I've heard it isn't.  ;D

There are 3 types of astropolises in 3 different sizes, as they growth. First you build around each planet is Alpha, then Beta and Gamma. You can adjust which sprites they use in custom_entities.json. It isn't hard to understand which should be changed, so no explanation would be.

Also, you can use as a sprite whatever you want by adding files, just don't forget it need a lights overlay (that can be blank-transparent).

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boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #313 on: April 19, 2020, 06:08:37 AM »

Just a suggestion, but perhaps you could add a "realistic" and lore friendly terraforming option in the settings that you can enable to make specific types of teraforming impossible and others unable to be done unless you build terraforming buildings related to them.

For instance, if there was a world with the hot or cold modifier you would not be able to remove the condition by terraforming the planet unless you had stellar reflectors in orbit, and if the reflectors where removed the condition would return in short order as the surface would again be unprotected. Or if you wanted to make a world have a mild climate you would have to construct an atmospheric processor first, and likewise the atmosphere must be constantly processed to keep the mild conditions in effect. (maybe have it so the maintenance cost is drastically lowered if you have access to domain tech, to allow players to terraform worlds into low hazard conditions without nullifying the benefits by the massive 50k maintance costs, or perhaps have it so that the terraforming buildings have lowered maintainance costs as time goes on because the planets conditions become easier to modify as they settle down)

Also make it so that you cannot change a planets type by terraforming but still allow better conditions for farming/organics/volatiles via the terraforming option, like you just terraformed the planet into the same type normally. Perhaps make it require the use of an Eisen division because you need to engineer new strains of flora, fauna, and microbes to take hold on the planet and you would need labs to create such things, unlike the reflectors and processor however, once the new strains are developed you can shut the lab down as any new developments can be handled by local lower tech labs (ie. space termites get in the space corn, colonists develop space raid, this does not need an Eisen division)

Like I said this should be an option, not what the mod should be, this just feels more in line with the lore as taking a jungle planet and suddenly turning it into a water world or vise versa in a couple years just feels so wrong to me. This feels better as your not preforming centuries of work in a couple years, your just taking existing conditions and using the degraded but still advanced tech of the sector to improve upon them, not playing god by throwing comets into water and creating continents. (you can explain why it only takes a year or two to improve the farming/organics/volatiles condition by saying that the only areas effected are those within direct use of the colony, the world will be taken over by the new strains from the Eisen division in time but that is decades away.)

Or you can do what I do and just refuse to change planet types and require the specific industries before I allow terraforming to occur, then keep them around after it is done. That is easier to do and requires no programming lol.

I will admit however that it does make exploration much more necessary and keeps good planets rare, it just makes it so that your good planets can be made better and the edge is taken off the bad ones.

This mod was originally more along these lines, but there are several reasons why realistic terraforming was/is problematic:

1. It was too complex for many players to understand.
2. It was very time consuming to code.
3. Players had different ideas about how realistic terraforming should work, and even realistic terraforming was seen as unrealistic or unscientific by many players.
4. It was bad for gameplay because it took too long.
5. Players didn't like having the resources on their planets reduced as a result of realistic terraforming.

At this time I have no plans to implement an option to have more realistic terraforming because of the reasons above. Sorry!

Spoiler
Considering this mod adds Terraforming and Station Construction.

I have been thinking about a new business that could come out of Terraforming planets. Colony Selling.

You could make a profit by colonizing a barren rock, terraforming it and then sell it to any of the other Factions.

Making Terraforming and Station Construction a Business on its own.

Would be a very interesting source of income with heavy investment but very big payoffs as well. Also you will be able to manipulate the Market by favoring Factions, etc.

I think it could be an interesting addition.
[close]

First reaction: Heresy. That is rather Nex suggestion. Who will spent dozen of years terraforming planet to something decent and increasing it's size to just sell it afterwards???

Second reaction: Damn! That is a way to create/increase global market value to extra gain from export!!! And once you sell the planet (or rather whole system), you do need no worry about pirates and expeditions. Some faction loose too many markets via deciv? Here you go, restored military strength! All you need is not forgot to unequipp all AI cores/NF/ST from buildings and destroy some buildings, that increase accessibility not to create to strong market opponent. Or not. Sell the AI-spam colony to haegemony just for fun!

Not sure, if Boggled interested in implementing it here, tho'.


You can actually transfer colonies to other factions using Nex. You gain reputation with them but they don't pay you credits. I think selling terraformed colonies for lots of credits would be very interesting, but as Mondaymonkey indicated, this feature belongs in Nex, not here.
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Hussar

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Re: [0.9.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v5.0.5)
« Reply #314 on: April 19, 2020, 06:37:07 AM »

I've heard it's quite random
I've heard it isn't.  ;D

Then please inform the official helpers on the USC server about that.  8)

Either way thanks for the answer. So, if the stations are constant and we'll always progress from low through mid to high tech - simple change of low and midline sprites to hightech (so all 3 possible astropolises use same route) should do the trick? Asking since I usually take on a theme for my playthrough so I'd like to get a desired effect.
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