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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.7)  (Read 1070718 times)

iconoclasticflow

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.0.1)
« Reply #135 on: March 04, 2020, 01:42:11 PM »

Hi, boggled,

I really like the concept of the mod, and implementation has worked out really well. I play with Nexerelin, as well as your terraforming mod, and just picked this one up.

I like the concept a lot, but I'm a little let down that I can't seem to create free-floating player-built stations. Worlds that already have defensive stations seemingly cannot have stations with population that grow like colonies, meaning you have to choose between defense and growth. Why is that? Space is big!

I've read through this thread as well, and maybe I'm gonna get boo'd for this, but I'd actually say that the cost of the stations should go -way- up. As it is, it's easy to build them early and gain significant advantages. Late-game, where I am now (Cycle 215), I could spam an entire system with them.

A suggestion: Vary the pricetag, both in credits and resources, based on an adjustable hazard level. 100%-hazard stations should be extremely expensive, whereas a cheap station consisting of industrial equipment, bunk beds and an airlock would be cheap, but probably 300%+ hazard. (You kick a hole in the tinfoil and get yourself and three dozen friends sucked out into the void. Oops!) The cheap one might go for 300k or so, but a fully Earth-environmental station (which is what 100% hazard assumedly represents) is going to be mindblowingly expensive to set up and maintain. Think of how, in the terraforming mod, achieving a 100% hazard rating on a planet can take years and cost millions of credits. Same deal, except now you have to also make it self-contained and orbitally stable.

Just some thoughts, thanks for making the mod! I hope I'll get to cram a system full of stations soon.

(Another suggestion: to avoid the 'overlapping defense fleets' thing, is it possible to just restrict what buildings a station can have? Maybe 'astropolis' can't build Patrol HQ?)
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boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.0.1)
« Reply #136 on: March 04, 2020, 02:28:35 PM »

Hi, boggled,

I really like the concept of the mod, and implementation has worked out really well. I play with Nexerelin, as well as your terraforming mod, and just picked this one up.

I like the concept a lot, but I'm a little let down that I can't seem to create free-floating player-built stations. Worlds that already have defensive stations seemingly cannot have stations with population that grow like colonies, meaning you have to choose between defense and growth. Why is that? Space is big!

I've read through this thread as well, and maybe I'm gonna get boo'd for this, but I'd actually say that the cost of the stations should go -way- up. As it is, it's easy to build them early and gain significant advantages. Late-game, where I am now (Cycle 215), I could spam an entire system with them.

A suggestion: Vary the pricetag, both in credits and resources, based on an adjustable hazard level. 100%-hazard stations should be extremely expensive, whereas a cheap station consisting of industrial equipment, bunk beds and an airlock would be cheap, but probably 300%+ hazard. (You kick a hole in the tinfoil and get yourself and three dozen friends sucked out into the void. Oops!) The cheap one might go for 300k or so, but a fully Earth-environmental station (which is what 100% hazard assumedly represents) is going to be mindblowingly expensive to set up and maintain. Think of how, in the terraforming mod, achieving a 100% hazard rating on a planet can take years and cost millions of credits. Same deal, except now you have to also make it self-contained and orbitally stable.

Just some thoughts, thanks for making the mod! I hope I'll get to cram a system full of stations soon.

(Another suggestion: to avoid the 'overlapping defense fleets' thing, is it possible to just restrict what buildings a station can have? Maybe 'astropolis' can't build Patrol HQ?)

Regarding station costs, my next update is coming soon which will add settings to control this. You can already modify the hazard rating if you wish. Adding some sort of player-controlled link between hazard rating and construction cost would take way too much time to implement relative to the number of players who would enable it.

Unfortunately I cannot restrict or modify vanilla industries without introducing incompatibilities with other mods.



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iconoclasticflow

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.0.1)
« Reply #137 on: March 04, 2020, 02:55:49 PM »

Ouch, okay.

What about increasing the number of stations per system, maybe on a scaling-cost basis? Each station costs progressively more, yielding a diminishing-returns situation for folks trying to stack Patrol HQs, but allowing them to do it if that's their vision?
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boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.0.1)
« Reply #138 on: March 04, 2020, 04:18:59 PM »

Ouch, okay.

Sorry if I was harsh in my response earlier. I'm only one person and I have a full time day job. It's simply impossible for me to implement every idea suggested in the forums, so I have to prioritize based on what features I think people want to see most. I don't have the ability to view what settings people are using with my mod, so I can only guess based on the feedback I receive here. It's my understanding that very few people increase the mining station limit above the default of one per system, which is why I think progressively scaling station costs would largely go unused.

What about increasing the number of stations per system, maybe on a scaling-cost basis? Each station costs progressively more, yielding a diminishing-returns situation for folks trying to stack Patrol HQs, but allowing them to do it if that's their vision?

This is a pretty good idea and would be easier to implement and test. If there are more people who want this feature, make yourselves heard!
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TaylorItaly

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.0.1)
« Reply #139 on: March 04, 2020, 04:50:25 PM »


What about increasing the number of stations per system, maybe on a scaling-cost basis? Each station costs progressively more, yielding a diminishing-returns situation for folks trying to stack Patrol HQs, but allowing them to do it if that's their vision?

+1
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.1.0)
« Reply #140 on: March 06, 2020, 06:23:24 AM »

This is less about the mod and more about Starsector's stations in general, but I do wonder why they're often safer than planets.
There's a number of hazards that all space objects without atmosphere, gravity, or a magnetic field should have:
-A temperature hazard depending on how close they are to the star(none if they're in the Goldilocks zone): +0-50%
-Poor Light/Darkness if they're in the outer reaches of the system or in a system without a star: +0-50%
-A station-exclusive "No Gravity" hazard that gives, I dunno, 50% hazard and 25% accessibility or something: +50%
-Irradiated if they're close to a star, especially if it's a violent one. Solar winds are no joke: +0/50%(In a perfect world, there would be a "Mild Radiation" hazard for 25%, but alas)
-Meteor Impacts for all of them: +50%
Even the safest stations should have at least 200%.

Writing this up made me wonder... Would it be hard to add an accessibility modifier to the settings? I know that dynamic hazard is undoable and I'll have to default to 200-250% or something, but it'd be cool if I could also simulate the "No Gravity" accessibility bonus.

Edit: Oh, also, would it be possible to have separate options for the hazard rating setting and cramped quarters applying to non-player stations? I like the idea of giving cramped quarters to all stations at size 5 because it should keep them competitive while at the same time keeping places like Lost Astropolis from catching up to goddamn Chico in population, but applying the player's hazard rating to them makes many stations just stop growing completely. They already suffer the 0.5x growth penalty, so I feel like adding the hazard rating on top of that is too much.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 01:58:14 PM by Uhlang »
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tindrli

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.0.1)
« Reply #141 on: March 06, 2020, 10:22:41 AM »

Ouch, okay.

Sorry if I was harsh in my response earlier. I'm only one person and I have a full time day job. It's simply impossible for me to implement every idea suggested in the forums, so I have to prioritize based on what features I think people want to see most. I don't have the ability to view what settings people are using with my mod, so I can only guess based on the feedback I receive here. It's my understanding that very few people increase the mining station limit above the default of one per system, which is why I think progressively scaling station costs would largely go unused.

What about increasing the number of stations per system, maybe on a scaling-cost basis? Each station costs progressively more, yielding a diminishing-returns situation for folks trying to stack Patrol HQs, but allowing them to do it if that's their vision?

This is a pretty good idea and would be easier to implement and test. If there are more people who want this feature, make yourselves heard!
i dont even know what is that. i just started this mod for a first time. started a game ans saw that there is a new update. and checking it now i saw that i need to open a ok il quote
Spoiler
known issues:
-If the player does not open the colony management screen very soon after creating a new market, there will be a bug related to population growth. I have no idea what causes this, but my workaround is to open the colony management screen as soon as the market is created to avoid it.
[close]

and to be honest i dont even know what that is. i mean i understand it but i dont know how to create market. Is creating a market same as building a commerce building. i think not. anyway sorry for bothering. great mod and thanx for dedicating time.
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boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.1.0)
« Reply #142 on: March 06, 2020, 02:46:34 PM »

This is less about the mod and more about Starsector's stations in general, but I do wonder why they're often safer than planets.
There's a number of hazards that all space objects without atmosphere, gravity, or a magnetic field should have:
-A temperature hazard depending on how close they are to the star(none if they're in the Goldilocks zone): +0-50%
-Poor Light/Darkness if they're in the outer reaches of the system or in a system without a star: +0-50%
-A station-exclusive "No Gravity" hazard that gives, I dunno, 50% hazard and 25% accessibility or something: +50%
-Irradiated if they're close to a star, especially if it's a violent one. Solar winds are no joke: +0/50%(In a perfect world, there would be a "Mild Radiation" hazard for 25%, but alas)
-Meteor Impacts for all of them: +50%
Even the safest stations should have at least 200%.

Writing this up made me wonder... Would it be hard to add an accessibility modifier to the settings? I know that dynamic hazard is undoable and I'll have to default to 200-250% or something, but it'd be cool if I could also simulate the "No Gravity" accessibility bonus.

Edit: Oh, also, would it be possible to have separate options for the hazard rating setting and cramped quarters applying to non-player stations? I like the idea of giving cramped quarters to all stations at size 5 because it should keep them competitive while at the same time keeping places like Lost Astropolis from catching up to goddamn Chico in population, but applying the player's hazard rating to them makes many stations just stop growing completely. They already suffer the 0.5x growth penalty, so I feel like adding the hazard rating on top of that is too much.

With regard to station hazard rating, I disagree with most of your points. First, stations in Starsector appear to be designed to rotate in such a way that they will have artificial gravity throughout much of the station. This will eliminate any hazard that results from low gravity. Second, the entire station is a controlled habitat so colonists are never exposed to cold, darkness, meteors or radiation (as long as the power stays on and the hull remains intact, etc.) However, I did create the option to adjust hazard because I know many players disagree with my analysis.

A "no gravity" accessibility bonus for stations is a good idea. It would probably be very easy to implement too. I'll add an option for this in the settings file. Notably accessibility increases population growth, which can help counteract any hazard increases.

I don't think adding the option to differentiate between player and non-player stations regarding global hazard and "cramped quarters" settings is a good idea. It would be complex to code and test, and I think it might be difficult for most players to understand what exactly the options do if they're not already very familiar with Starsector mechanics. If the settings file has too many esoteric options, newer players will take one look at it and decide not to bother.

I hope that stations see some balancing/reworks in vanilla/Nex because ultimately I think some sort of "cramped quarters" or hard cap on population should be the default setting, but I don't want to override the vanilla/Nex behavior by default with my mods.
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.1.0)
« Reply #143 on: March 06, 2020, 05:00:36 PM »

With regard to station hazard rating, I disagree with most of your points. First, stations in Starsector appear to be designed to rotate in such a way that they will have artificial gravity throughout much of the station. This will eliminate any hazard that results from low gravity. Second, the entire station is a controlled habitat so colonists are never exposed to cold, darkness, meteors or radiation (as long as the power stays on and the hull remains intact, etc.) However, I did create the option to adjust hazard because I know many players disagree with my analysis
Sorry, I wasn't thinking in terms of what dangers the colonists are exposed to, but in terms of one of the ways Starsector hazard actually manifests as — upkeep.
Consider asteroids. Mining stations are surrounded by them, while siphon stations are right next to cosmic drains they often drift to. The danger of impacts is undeniably there, and a proper station would have a way to nullify it. What is it? A PD system that shoots down the rocks that come too close for comfort? A simple AI that scans the surrounding space looking for objects on a collision course? An asteroid redirection fleet? A huge omni shield? A repurposed drive field? A set of engines that move the station out of the trajectory? A mix, maybe? Regardless of which it is, it would obviously cost money, and a meteor hazard seems like a good way to represent it.
Same with gravity. Yeah, stations make their own, but I imagine that there's lots of costly maintenance involved in keeping it just right.
A cold station would need to spend extra on heating and insulation, a dark station couldn't save any money on lighting, and a station exposed to solar winds would have to invest into solar and/or radiation shielding(if stars can eat your supplies if you're too close, it makes sense for them to do something similar to stations via prolonged exposure.)
The colonists are safe, sure, but I think that a lot of money goes into making it so.
A "no gravity" accessibility bonus for stations is a good idea. It would probably be very easy to implement too. I'll add an option for this in the settings file. Notably accessibility increases population growth, which can help counteract any hazard increases.
Cool. Looking forward to it.
I don't think adding the option to differentiate between player and non-player stations regarding global hazard and "cramped quarters" settings is a good idea. It would be complex to code and test, and I think it might be difficult for most players to understand what exactly the options do if they're not already very familiar with Starsector mechanics. If the settings file has too many esoteric options, newer players will take one look at it and decide not to bother.
That's a shame, but I understand.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.1.1)
« Reply #144 on: March 08, 2020, 10:14:55 AM »

Picture here.
[close]

This is Aka Mainyu in the Duzahk system. An astropolis, builded around, periodically dives into a corona, almost touching a photosphere. I doubt, it is possible to achieve a stable orbit with that radius if so close to a incomparably larger star.

Suggestion is or decrease an astropolis orbit radius if close to a larger object, or disallow building an astropolis in such conditions. Alternatively, both can be applied exclusively to Aka Mainyu, as it is looks like the only object, having that issue in the core worlds, and I have never seen similar generated in the outer systems. Lots of players colonizing the Duzahk, so it can be useful.

UPD: I was little bit wrong. Actually, I haven't check. Magec and Tyle systems have similar gas giants.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 10:22:36 AM by Mondaymonkey »
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I dislike human beings... or I just do not know how to cook them well.

boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.1.1)
« Reply #145 on: March 08, 2020, 10:48:00 AM »

Picture here.
[close]

This is Aka Mainyu in the Duzahk system. An astropolis, builded around, periodically dives into a corona, almost touching a photosphere. I doubt, it is possible to achieve a stable orbit with that radius if so close to a incomparably larger star.

Suggestion is or decrease an astropolis orbit radius if close to a larger object, or disallow building an astropolis in such conditions. Alternatively, both can be applied exclusively to Aka Mainyu, as it is looks like the only object, having that issue in the core worlds, and I have never seen similar generated in the outer systems. Lots of players colonizing the Duzahk, so it can be useful.

UPD: I was little bit wrong. Actually, I haven't check. Magec and Tyle systems have similar gas giants.

Good catch. The astropolis orbit checking code doesn't consider whether the astropolis would end up coming too close to a star. I don't want to issue a patch just to fix this, but I'll make a change that will be included whenever the next version is released. Thank you!
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.1.1)
« Reply #146 on: March 08, 2020, 12:32:45 PM »

You are welcome!

Small question: what is the ore/transplutonics deposits mechanic for a mining station? Or is it stable at a moderate level?

Also, it is looks like player is able to sell the "mining" industry in a mining stations and siphons to clear a slot for another structure. That conversion makes them equal to astropolis, regardless is it a bug or a feature.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.1.1)
« Reply #147 on: March 09, 2020, 01:02:31 AM »

I was curious, what if I build all three astropolises and a siphon, and then construct a "High command" on all of the five marcets?


Some fleets are invisible due to magnetic field, but they are there.
[close]

The answer is: my CPU MELTING. OK, fine, I have some serious cooling issues on the laptop after a cat provoked incident. Still, I assume, that can be performance problem even to a non-damaged computer.
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e

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.1.1)
« Reply #148 on: March 09, 2020, 01:11:14 AM »

I was curious, what if I build all three astropolises and a siphon, and then construct a "High command" on all of the five marcets?

[close]
That's nothing, make them all at least level 8 and then i might feel mildly amused.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Player Station Construction (v3.1.1)
« Reply #149 on: March 09, 2020, 01:34:17 AM »

Like that?
[close]

There are only 4 "High command" as no siphon. Sometimes it is 15 FPS, usually 20-30. But no melting.
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