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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Planet Search Overhaul (07/13/24)

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Author Topic: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)  (Read 1317087 times)

basileus

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3555 on: October 10, 2024, 09:48:07 AM »

I only build domed cities on planets where I have astropolis stations in orbit. That way there's tons of patrols and stations right there to help me defeat invasions.

That was my calculation as well; however, by the time I have a system that developed there is virtually no value to adding domed cities--the small growth bonus and hazard penalties are functionally irrelevant.  I look forward to your patch that makes them more interesting.
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boggled

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3556 on: October 10, 2024, 10:53:26 AM »

I only build domed cities on planets where I have astropolis stations in orbit. That way there's tons of patrols and stations right there to help me defeat invasions.

That was my calculation as well; however, by the time I have a system that developed there is virtually no value to adding domed cities--the small growth bonus and hazard penalties are functionally irrelevant.  I look forward to your patch that makes them more interesting.

It can suppress inimical biosphere from the Mesozoic Park industry to maximize credit income on the planet. You're right though, it is a fairly unimpactful bonus are that point so perhaps it should be strengthened somehow.
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Re-bot-S.AI.

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3557 on: October 11, 2024, 09:59:08 AM »

well the easiest way to strengthen it is to reduce the penalty. though we have already talked on that thoroughly at this point.

as i thought up a while ago and accessibility bonus certainly helps and makes some sense as everything is bunched up

i could even see it partly dampening thermal hazards due to how it works
like a 25-50% reduction to the hazzard effects of hot/cold and extreme hot/cold, but not a full counter to it

another interesting thing one could do is give it a semi small flat bonus to ground defense (while keeping the multiplicative debuff at whatever value it eventually ends up at)
this would make it far better on brand new colonies as it would actually be beneficial to their defense in the short term vs smaller threats while being a negative in the long term and vs large scale threats. the idea being you can bunch up your defensive structures around the dome, giving it better defense vs mostly anything OTHER then pure saturation bombardments and large scale attacks.
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boggled

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3558 on: October 11, 2024, 10:04:03 AM »

well the easiest way to strengthen it is to reduce the penalty. though we have already talked on that thoroughly at this point.

as i thought up a while ago and accessibility bonus certainly helps and makes some sense as everything is bunched up

i could even see it partly dampening thermal hazards due to how it works
like a 25-50% reduction to the hazzard effects of hot/cold and extreme hot/cold, but not a full counter to it

another interesting thing one could do is give it a semi small flat bonus to ground defense (while keeping the multiplicative debuff at whatever value it eventually ends up at)
this would make it far better on brand new colonies as it would actually be beneficial to their defense in the short term vs smaller threats while being a negative in the long term and vs large scale threats. the idea being you can bunch up your defensive structures around the dome, giving it better defense vs mostly anything OTHER then pure saturation bombardments and large scale attacks.

I don't want to remove or reduce the penalty (with default settings). Rather, I will try to find some way to make domed cities more useful on mature colonies. Again, my goal is avoid boring gameplay by forcing the player to consider the positives and negatives of different terraforming options instead of just duplicating an "optimal" configuration on every planet.
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basileus

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3559 on: October 11, 2024, 03:23:50 PM »

It can suppress inimical biosphere from the Mesozoic Park industry to maximize credit income on the planet. You're right though, it is a fairly unimpactful bonus are that point so perhaps it should be strengthened somehow.

Yeah, that's precisely why I tell myself I'm going to use it "this time" whenever I start a new save, but I play with Nex and Starfarer turned on.  That's a choice that I make, but it does mean that I'm usually at war with at least half of the sector for most of the run, and I never end up using domed cities.  By the time it would feel safe to do so, I have millions banked away and am limited by production capacity (and desire to produce more) and not cash flow.  I don't have any suggestions for how I would change it, and am overall very happy with the mod.  Just sharing my experiences since the topic came up.
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earthman1234

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3560 on: October 11, 2024, 03:33:43 PM »

Hello! Is there a way to add more items to be able to craft in the terraforming menu?
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Re-bot-S.AI.

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3561 on: October 11, 2024, 07:36:15 PM »

I don't want to remove or reduce the penalty (with default settings). Rather, I will try to find some way to make domed cities more useful on mature colonies. Again, my goal is avoid boring gameplay by forcing the player to consider the positives and negatives of different terraforming options instead of just duplicating an "optimal" configuration on every planet.

in that case i'd definitely recommend things such as an accessibility boost. Or partial reduction to thermal hazards. perhaps special bonuses for commerce when the dome is present. or any number of other upsides that could potentially make it remotely worth it when playing with nexelerin.

i do personally agree with basileus. unless you have managed to be super friends with everyone in the sector till the end of time. no matter how much you want to use them, they are just not an option unless you for some reason colonize an awful world where you HAVE to use dome to eek out a working colony. and by the time you reach a point where you could run em and not worry about invasions stomping it with ease, you often have little to no reason to even bother with it in the first place, usually the colony having already reached max size and industry upkeep being a non issue to the player by that point.

it feels much similar to like if we had a hullmod that allowed any ship to gain a 360 shield BUT that shield has tripled upkeep and takes 9000% damage. like cool id love to have a 360 shield but the downside makes it totally unreasonable even if the only weapon you ever face is pilums and thumpers.

(edit): im not suggesting lessening the negative to the point where the dome is outright a better choice everywhere. I'm just saying in its current implementation its so bad that you really cant use it anywhere. pretty much its current form is the exact polar opposite of the issue you fear it might have if its downsides were too weak. It very much does not sit in any sort of middle ground.

like if i were to throw it on a world with defense on par with my faction's capital planet with the best possible defenses. that being 160,380 value on ground defense (size 7 planet with maxed out everything, seafloor cities, AND planetary shield). to get that value on a non-water world I'd probably need a size 8 planet actually, none the less, the value would be reduced to 8019.... I'm pretty sure I've seen size 3's with higher defense ratings, and definitely size 4's that beat that without even having max investment in defenses, said colonies of such sizes are also quite easy to invade, both for player and the ai, and you can't always guarantee the station on such a world is going to be operational cause random large attacks can happen, as well as operative sabotage. 95% reduction is incredibly debilitating, to the point that it would need some insane bonuses to even get considered by the player early on midgame colony wise. and of course, late game the player is just never going to bother with it cause they don't need the cost reductions from lower hazard, nor the growth rate, it's just not worth having to babysit the planet with defences weaker than tissue paper.

domes biggest bonus as of current is colony growth rate, this bonus falls off hard as the colony grows becoming far far less relevant, combining this with the gargantuan defense penalties and its just never worth it on any world, not worth it early on, due to it making the colony invade-able with a single marine, and not worth it later on cause the bonus's dont really do much any more AND the planet can still be invaded by a random pirate named bob with his lone hound when he saw that the hegemony blew up the station during a blockade. as far as i can see it, this will remain the case no matter what as long as the debuff is greater then 80% OR the dome suddenly has insane bonuses, which would just turn it into the "best on every planet" option you fear having it become.

dome would not be a super option even if it didn't have as bad a defense debuff anyway, as it would only make sense on worlds that have conditions it would block, say planets with extreme weather, toxic atmosphere, and thin atmosphere at the same time, the growth is a nice bonus sure, but most people are gonna avoid the negative effects it has even if they were far more tame then they are now.

(sorry for the text wall)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2024, 10:45:45 AM by Re-bot-S.AI. »
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boggled

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3562 on: October 13, 2024, 12:37:19 PM »

Hello! Is there a way to add more items to be able to craft in the terraforming menu?

Yes, you can modify the project_effects.csv and terraforming_projects.csv files to add additional special items to the crafting menu.
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EnigmaniteZ

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3563 on: October 14, 2024, 06:09:50 AM »

I was wondering about domed cities, after reading here a little I'm glad I never made any. 0.05x is too steep a penalty. dividing your defenses by 20? ew.
curious what might end up happening, but unless that penalty is adjusted (or adjustable) I just won't ever use them. would rather see something like 0.8x defenses and -20% accessibility, less devastating for defense but still has a penalty that the player has to consider. surprised that they didn't get an access penalty in the first place, since...yknow, domed city...big dome sealing in all the things and making getting around harder. and you can hand-wave off most of the defense problem as "they're built with force fields to help mitigate the problem". could also add a pather interest reduction if you want a buff for 'em, because "ugh, controlled exits", but only apply it if not a free port.

just...throwing some ideas out I guess.
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boggled

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3564 on: October 14, 2024, 08:02:37 AM »

I was wondering about domed cities, after reading here a little I'm glad I never made any. 0.05x is too steep a penalty. dividing your defenses by 20? ew.
curious what might end up happening, but unless that penalty is adjusted (or adjustable) I just won't ever use them. would rather see something like 0.8x defenses and -20% accessibility, less devastating for defense but still has a penalty that the player has to consider. surprised that they didn't get an access penalty in the first place, since...yknow, domed city...big dome sealing in all the things and making getting around harder. and you can hand-wave off most of the defense problem as "they're built with force fields to help mitigate the problem". could also add a pather interest reduction if you want a buff for 'em, because "ugh, controlled exits", but only apply it if not a free port.

just...throwing some ideas out I guess.

Seafloor Cities (the water planet version of Domed Cities) already uses an accessibility reduction as the downside penalty. I want to keep that penalty as the unique downside for the Seafloor Cities version.
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Re-bot-S.AI.

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3565 on: October 16, 2024, 08:56:27 AM »

on a different topic
I believe i have found some bugs
do note i have cramped stations on

after asking around on the sector discord it has come to my attention that stations having a +50% hazard modifier for 'no atmosphere' may not be intended. I have this happening on every station i have built in my current playthrough, though i did manually lower base station hazard to bring it to just above 100% hazard.
hazard modifier can be seen below in the image.

on my main planet I have added vulturine lobster via the structure that adds that modifier, I deconstructed that building after it had completed this task.
even though my planet makes vulturnian lobster it is also perpetually the most expensive place to buy/sell the thing in the entire sector in spite of the fact it literally produces them as a product. I have no idea what's causing this issue either.
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SC_Reaper

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.8)
« Reply #3566 on: October 16, 2024, 09:33:34 AM »

Needs to be fixed on TASCs end, needs to check for the automated ships recovery tag, instead of the skill to work.

Hi! Would it be possible for you to make the Autonomous AI Battlestation check for the automated ships recovery tag rather than checking for the Automated Ships skill to determine eligibility whether you can build it?

This would fix compatibility with Lukas' Second in Command which has the automated ships skill on an officer (but gives the player the automated ships recovery tag)

I can look into this. Thanks for letting me know about it!

Just wanted to thank both of you for this. I'm making a new modlist, and immediately though that the two mods wouldn't be compatible, which would really suck. TASC is a mainstay in my lists, but Second in Command also seemed really cool.
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boggled

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3567 on: October 16, 2024, 06:06:30 PM »

Needs to be fixed on TASCs end, needs to check for the automated ships recovery tag, instead of the skill to work.

Hi! Would it be possible for you to make the Autonomous AI Battlestation check for the automated ships recovery tag rather than checking for the Automated Ships skill to determine eligibility whether you can build it?

This would fix compatibility with Lukas' Second in Command which has the automated ships skill on an officer (but gives the player the automated ships recovery tag)

I can look into this. Thanks for letting me know about it!

Just wanted to thank both of you for this. I'm making a new modlist, and immediately though that the two mods wouldn't be compatible, which would really suck. TASC is a mainstay in my lists, but Second in Command also seemed really cool.


Thank you! Enjoy!

on a different topic
I believe i have found some bugs
do note i have cramped stations on

after asking around on the sector discord it has come to my attention that stations having a +50% hazard modifier for 'no atmosphere' may not be intended. I have this happening on every station i have built in my current playthrough, though i did manually lower base station hazard to bring it to just above 100% hazard.
hazard modifier can be seen below in the image.

on my main planet I have added vulturine lobster via the structure that adds that modifier, I deconstructed that building after it had completed this task.
even though my planet makes vulturnian lobster it is also perpetually the most expensive place to buy/sell the thing in the entire sector in spite of the fact it literally produces them as a product. I have no idea what's causing this issue either.

The station no atmosphere bug is known and I will fix it in the next patch.

Lobsters work differently than other commodities in vanilla, and I have not modified the vanilla logic for them. It's possible their price is hardcoded to be higher the further away from Volturn you are.
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Uther Phobos

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3568 on: October 17, 2024, 12:22:30 AM »

Lobsters work differently than other commodities in vanilla, and I have not modified the vanilla logic for them. It's possible their price is hardcoded to be higher the further away from Volturn you are.
AFAIK it's just that vanilla nobody buys them for more than their base value which is what you always pay for stuff taken from your own inventory, since nobody actually has a demand for it.
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Stalkar

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Re: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.10)
« Reply #3569 on: October 17, 2024, 09:21:57 AM »

Been enjoying using it for a long time,few bugs/oversights to report.
Switching planet types overwrties deposits on the planet.FE: arid with +2 organics terraformed to terran,sets them to -1.
On the same note,new forced conditions conditions break colony items.FE: volatiles break soil nanites.
Rather than just getting them right away its better to have the option to add them unlocked and leave be at user discretion.
unless thats intentional,at which point...shrug,heads-up could do
Not really a large issue but the "has X amount of water present" might be a little too vague.

Hello! Those things you mentioned are intended - it's for balance purposes to ensure terraforming has downsides and isn't akin to using console commands.

I'm going to update the tooltips for the "water present" logic at some point to make it more clear how the system works.
Figured it was for planets not being directly superior to one another to keep competition,but a tooltip to what it will do to resources would go a long way
« Last Edit: October 17, 2024, 11:43:34 AM by Stalkar »
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