Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2 (04/30/22)

Pages: 1 ... 109 110 [111] 112 113 ... 121

Author Topic: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.1.1)  (Read 504397 times)

boggled

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1650 on: January 24, 2022, 01:54:17 PM »

Hello. May I ask for an option to toggle whether to add volatiles to a newly terraformed planet?
Had terraformed a tundra without volatiles into a terran world and the farming item stopped working due to the presence of volatiles. It would be nice if the player has an option to control this.

I'm not going to implement an option for this because I think it would make the mod less fun. In previous versions, there was an "optimal" terraforming configuration, and players would tend to just create a bunch of identical "optimal" worlds, which was boring. I deliberately made some planet types start with volatiles to make the decision about which terraforming projects to use more interesting.

Wait, so how is the calculation for linked resources?

I thought it was 1 belt = Spare Ore, 2 belts = Moderate Ore, etc.?

It's 1 belt = sparse, 2-4 belts = moderate, 5-8 belts = abundant, 9-13 belts = rich, 14+ belts = ultrarich. Those values are not configurable.

I'll update the comments in the settings file to make it more clear what the options do.
Logged

Droll

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1651 on: January 25, 2022, 12:18:58 PM »

Hello. May I ask for an option to toggle whether to add volatiles to a newly terraformed planet?
Had terraformed a tundra without volatiles into a terran world and the farming item stopped working due to the presence of volatiles. It would be nice if the player has an option to control this.

A better mod for you might be "modified industry requirements" or something like that. It's a mod that allows you to configure the condition requirements of items like the soil nanites.
Logged

DrTechman42

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 24
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1652 on: January 25, 2022, 01:41:13 PM »

A better mod for you might be "modified industry requirements" or something like that. It's a mod that allows you to configure the condition requirements of items like the soil nanites.

I completely agree with the restrictions on colony items, which does result in a significant number of planets being dumped, but it makes THE planet that you eventually find so special. It's just the fact that the process that I've initiated and sponsored (terraforming) ends up creating unwanted results. I'm unable to find the proper adjective here. Annoying? I don't know.
Well, it's not a big thing and no one stops those who disagree from editing the save file.
Logged

Iannar

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1653 on: January 25, 2022, 11:02:57 PM »

It's 1 belt = sparse, 2-4 belts = moderate, 5-8 belts = abundant, 9-13 belts = rich, 14+ belts = ultrarich. Those values are not configurable.

I think that these values are too harsh. If I want to have refining industry on my mining station, I need at least rich (+2) deposits of ores to sustain itself. I don't even remember finding 9 belt system before - it's so rare. With volcanic planets huge nerf in last vanilla patches and versions of your mod, I want to rely more on mining stations. I would like to suggest these changes:

1 belt = sparse, 2-3 belts = moderate, 4-5 belts = abundant, 6-7 belts = rich, 8+ belts = ultrarich
Logged

JohnVicres

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1654 on: January 26, 2022, 07:05:31 AM »

It's 1 belt = sparse, 2-4 belts = moderate, 5-8 belts = abundant, 9-13 belts = rich, 14+ belts = ultrarich. Those values are not configurable.

I think that these values are too harsh. If I want to have refining industry on my mining station, I need at least rich (+2) deposits of ores to sustain itself. I don't even remember finding 9 belt system before - it's so rare. With volcanic planets huge nerf in last vanilla patches and versions of your mod, I want to rely more on mining stations. I would like to suggest these changes:

1 belt = sparse, 2-3 belts = moderate, 4-5 belts = abundant, 6-7 belts = rich, 8+ belts = ultrarich
I second this.
Logged

boggled

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1655 on: January 26, 2022, 09:44:03 AM »

It's 1 belt = sparse, 2-4 belts = moderate, 5-8 belts = abundant, 9-13 belts = rich, 14+ belts = ultrarich. Those values are not configurable.

I think that these values are too harsh. If I want to have refining industry on my mining station, I need at least rich (+2) deposits of ores to sustain itself. I don't even remember finding 9 belt system before - it's so rare. With volcanic planets huge nerf in last vanilla patches and versions of your mod, I want to rely more on mining stations. I would like to suggest these changes:

1 belt = sparse, 2-3 belts = moderate, 4-5 belts = abundant, 6-7 belts = rich, 8+ belts = ultrarich
I second this.

I'll take another look at these values, and might add a way to configure them in the settings file. The problem is that the number of asteroid belts in a system can be deceptively high - if the numbers are reduced too much, almost every system will produce very high ore deposits. A player editing their save file might set the values too low and not realize the negative impact it will have on gameplay.

I need at least rich (+2) deposits of ores to sustain itself

The Autonomous Mantle Bore works on stations - that will give an easy +3 to your mining output. You can also enable the AI Mining Drones building in the settings file to boost mining production.
Logged

Iannar

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1656 on: January 26, 2022, 12:18:56 PM »

I was thinking how help you "taking another look at these values", so I took normal size - mixed Sector and went to every randomly generated system (core worlds excluded). I checked how many asteroid belts "Construct Mining Station" is detecting. With help of "goto" command it took me 2h to get some hard data about number of belts in systems:

0 belts = 70
1 belt  = 69
2 belts = 30
3 belts = 20
4 belts = 5
5 belts = 5
6 belts = 2
7 belts = 0
8 belts = 1
9+ belts = 0
(also Starsector system naming algorithm is quite interesting)
Logged

boggled

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1657 on: January 26, 2022, 03:38:48 PM »

I was thinking how help you "taking another look at these values", so I took normal size - mixed Sector and went to every randomly generated system (core worlds excluded). I checked how many asteroid belts "Construct Mining Station" is detecting. With help of "goto" command it took me 2h to get some hard data about number of belts in systems:

0 belts = 70
1 belt  = 69
2 belts = 30
3 belts = 20
4 belts = 5
5 belts = 5
6 belts = 2
7 belts = 0
8 belts = 1
9+ belts = 0
(also Starsector system naming algorithm is quite interesting)

Wow, that's a lot of data! Thank you for taking the time to investigate this - I assumed the Core Worlds were a representative sample when I originally implemented this feature, but it's clear that's not the case and procedurally generated systems actually have minimal belts. Almost all the systems in the core world have two to four belts, several have 5-6, and Magec has 9. I think Hybrasil is the only Core World system with no belts.

Based on this information, it seems like the number of belts is not a good way to calculate ore richness - in part because the Core Worlds are so much richer than procedurally generated systems, and in part because very large belts count the same as small ones, which makes no sense.

I'm going to see if it's possible to calculate richness based on the area/size of belts in-system, instead of the number. If it's feasible, this should even out the discrepancies between the Core Worlds and procedurally generated systems - systems with one or two huge belts would rightfully be richer than ones with lots of tiny belts.

Logged

Iannar

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1658 on: January 27, 2022, 12:19:46 AM »

Based on this information, it seems like the number of belts is not a good way to calculate ore richness - in part because the Core Worlds are so much richer than procedurally generated systems, and in part because very large belts count the same as small ones, which makes no sense.

I'm going to see if it's possible to calculate richness based on the area/size of belts in-system, instead of the number. If it's feasible, this should even out the discrepancies between the Core Worlds and procedurally generated systems - systems with one or two huge belts would rightfully be richer than ones with lots of tiny belts.

In Magellan Protectorate mod one of the core systems of this faction is basically filled with asteroids and ship wrecks - one gigantic asteroid field. What is "Construct Mining Station" detecting? 4 belts...
One random system where I detected 8 belts was with three gas giants with tiny belts around them and 5 tiny fields.

But I want to write about another topic - planetary resources. After terraforming in to new type, planet gets new basic set of food (F), organics (O) and volatiles (V), which can be improved further.

I will now give points for resource availability: 1=poor/sparse/trace  2=adequate/moderate/common/diffuse  3=abundant/rich farmland  4=plentiful/bountiful farmland

and now the planets:
                                                                                             temperature:
Frozen: basic - V3           improved - V4           ( total 3 -> 4 )   very cold
Tundra: basic - F2 O1 V1 improved - F4 O1 V4  ( total 4 -> 9 )   not hot, not very hot
Arid:     basic - F2 O2      improved - F4 O3 V1  ( total 4 -> 8 )   not cold, not very cold
Jungle:  basic - F2 O2      improved - F4 O4      ( total 4 -> 8 )   hot, very hot
Terran:  basic - F2 O1 V1 improved - F4 O4 V1  ( total 4 -> 9 )   not very hot, not very cold
Water:  basic - F2            improved - F2 O4 V4 ( total 2 ->10 )   not very hot, not very cold

In my opinion some of these planets are too similar to each other. There is also little reward for terraforming into terran type, because food production is good on every planet (why?). With soil nanites terran planet is actually worse than jungle and arid. Tundra (which is basically better terran) and Arid type are too strong in my opinion. I would like to propose some balance changes:
                                                                                              temperature:
Frozen: basic - V3           improved - V4           ( total 3 -> 4 )    very cold (a lot of water, volatiles and not habitable)
Tundra: basic - F1 V2      improved - F2 O1 V3  ( total 3 -> 6 )   not hot, not very hot (best option for very cold planets)
Arid:     basic - F1 O2      improved - F2 O3 V1  ( total 3 -> 6 )   not very cold  (organic option for cold planets, otherwise there is no niche for it)
Jungle:  basic - F2 O2      improved - F3 O4      ( total 4 -> 7 )   hot, very hot   (organic option for normal and hot planets; best one for very hot)
Terran:  basic - F3 O1 V1 improved - F4 O3 V2  ( total 5 -> 9 )    only normal temperature (focus on food production; too strong for hot and cold to be available)
Water:   basic - F2          improved* - F2 O3 V3 ( total 2 -> 8 )   not very hot, not very cold *[ hot variant improved F2 O4 V2, cold variant improved F2 O2 V4] (adaptive - like water)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 07:05:33 AM by Iannar »
Logged

Doxs Roxs

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1659 on: January 27, 2022, 03:22:52 AM »

Hi, this seems like an awesome mod. However, I cannot figure out how to build any of the stations. I can build normal battle stations and the remnant AI battle station, but not the colony, siphon or belt stations.
I am using DIY planets as well, and I have disabled the terraforming parts as instructed. Can this be because I added the mod to an existing game?
Logged

Revanite

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1660 on: January 27, 2022, 06:15:32 AM »

Fatal: Error loading
[data.campaign.econ.plugins.BoggledEuteckSpecialitemPlugin]
Cause: data.campaign.econ.plugins.BoggledEuteckSpecialitemPlugin
Check starsector.log for more info.

Unfortunatly my game doesnt generate an log so i dont know were to find it.
Logged

lyravega

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1661 on: January 27, 2022, 09:56:57 AM »

Hi, this seems like an awesome mod. However, I cannot figure out how to build any of the stations. I can build normal battle stations and the remnant AI battle station, but not the colony, siphon or belt stations.
I am using DIY planets as well, and I have disabled the terraforming parts as instructed. Can this be because I added the mod to an existing game?
They're added as an ability. 'Turn' the ability 'page', and assign the empty slots with these station-construction abilities.
Logged

Doxs Roxs

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1662 on: January 27, 2022, 10:52:00 AM »

Hi, this seems like an awesome mod. However, I cannot figure out how to build any of the stations. I can build normal battle stations and the remnant AI battle station, but not the colony, siphon or belt stations.
I am using DIY planets as well, and I have disabled the terraforming parts as instructed. Can this be because I added the mod to an existing game?
They're added as an ability. 'Turn' the ability 'page', and assign the empty slots with these station-construction abilities.
Thank you, I just found them. I have literally been looking for how to build them for at least two days now  ;D
Logged

boggled

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1663 on: January 27, 2022, 04:26:11 PM »

Fatal: Error loading
[data.campaign.econ.plugins.BoggledEuteckSpecialitemPlugin]
Cause: data.campaign.econ.plugins.BoggledEuteckSpecialitemPlugin
Check starsector.log for more info.

Unfortunatly my game doesnt generate an log so i dont know were to find it.

When you update from a pre-8.0.0 version of this mod, you need to delete the entire mod folder, then paste in the new one. If you don't do this, you get that error.

But I want to write about another topic - planetary resources. After terraforming in to new type, planet gets new basic set of food (F), organics (O) and volatiles (V), which can be improved further.

I will now give points for resource availability: 1=poor/sparse/trace  2=adequate/moderate/common/diffuse  3=abundant/rich farmland  4=plentiful/bountiful farmland

and now the planets:
                                                                                             temperature:
Frozen: basic - V3           improved - V4           ( total 3 -> 4 )   very cold
Tundra: basic - F2 O1 V1 improved - F4 O1 V4  ( total 4 -> 9 )   not hot, not very hot
Arid:     basic - F2 O2      improved - F4 O3 V1  ( total 4 -> 8 )   not cold, not very cold
Jungle:  basic - F2 O2      improved - F4 O4      ( total 4 -> 8 )   hot, very hot
Terran:  basic - F2 O1 V1 improved - F4 O4 V1  ( total 4 -> 9 )   not very hot, not very cold
Water:  basic - F2            improved - F2 O4 V4 ( total 2 ->10 )   not very hot, not very cold

In my opinion some of these planets are too similar to each other. There is also little reward for terraforming into terran type, because food production is good on every planet (why?). With soil nanites terran planet is actually worse than jungle and arid. Tundra (which is basically better terran) and Arid type are too strong in my opinion. I would like to propose some balance changes:
                                                                                              temperature:
Frozen: basic - V3           improved - V4           ( total 3 -> 4 )    very cold (a lot of water, volatiles and not habitable)
Tundra: basic - F1 V2      improved - F2 O1 V3  ( total 3 -> 6 )   not hot, not very hot (best option for very cold planets)
Arid:     basic - F1 O2      improved - F2 O3 V1  ( total 3 -> 6 )   not very cold  (organic option for cold planets, otherwise there is no niche for it)
Jungle:  basic - F2 O2      improved - F3 O4      ( total 4 -> 7 )   hot, very hot   (organic option for normal and hot planets; best one for very hot)
Terran:  basic - F3 O1 V1 improved - F4 O3 V2  ( total 5 -> 9 )    only normal temperature (focus on food production; too strong for hot and cold to be available)
Water:   basic - F2          improved* - F2 O3 V3 ( total 2 -> 8 )   not very hot, not very cold *[ hot variant improved F2 O4 V2, cold variant improved F2 O2 V4] (adaptive - like water)

There's a lot to talk about here and it may be appropriate to adjust some of the values. However, with my current values I think each planet type has good reasons to select it over another for the given temperature class. For example, if you want to mine organics, Terran is superior to Tundra and Arid.

Regarding your proposed changes, I can see a few potential issues:

1. You write that the focus for Terran is farming - but since it starts with volatiles and therefore can't slot Soil Nanites, it's actually inferior for farming relative to Jungle and Arid despite their lower max farming values!

2. If the player suppresses the Hot or Cold condition, I think they'll have the expectation that they should be able to turn that planet into a Terran world. Stopping that wouldn't make sense from a lore standpoint. Also, I think all procedurally generated Arid/Desert planets are hot - allowing the player to create Arid/Desert worlds that are cold seems to be incongruent with how the vanilla system works, even if it makes sense from a realism standpoint.

3. The divergence in max values between planet types is less than the current system (even for farming, if you assume the player has access to Soil Nanites). If anything, this will make the planet types less distinct and more interchangeable.
Logged

Iannar

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.1)
« Reply #1664 on: January 27, 2022, 09:17:59 PM »

Regarding your proposed changes, I can see a few potential issues:

1. You write that the focus for Terran is farming - but since it starts with volatiles and therefore can't slot Soil Nanites, it's actually inferior for farming relative to Jungle and Arid despite their lower max farming values!

2. If the player suppresses the Hot or Cold condition, I think they'll have the expectation that they should be able to turn that planet into a Terran world. Stopping that wouldn't make sense from a lore standpoint. Also, I think all procedurally generated Arid/Desert planets are hot - allowing the player to create Arid/Desert worlds that are cold seems to be incongruent with how the vanilla system works, even if it makes sense from a realism standpoint.

3. The divergence in max values between planet types is less than the current system (even for farming, if you assume the player has access to Soil Nanites). If anything, this will make the planet types less distinct and more interchangeable.

1. I consider soil nanites as form of rare compensation for worse conditions - not a default bonus. I played many games without even finding one. But for compensation there has to be reason for it. I was able to create a jungle food +9 paradise (food +2 from bountiful farmland, another +2 from reflectors, and +2 from soil nanites, +1 from governor, +1 from alpha core, +1 from story point improvement) from barren extremely hot planet. It was hurting my eyes! I hate soil nanites.

2. Well, I was thinking about that too, but currently Arid type has little reason to exist, because it is outclassed by Jungle and Terran (no one cares about traces of volatiles). I was thinking about making Terran type a bit elite but... I got another idea! Terraforming points!

Each planet will have a pool of f.e. 120 terraforming points to spent. Every action will have a cost. Every planet and resource will have a preferred temperature condition:
Terran - normal, Water - normal, Jungle - hot, Arid - hot, Tundra - cold, Freezing - very cold
Food - normal, Organics - hot, Volatiles - cold

Base cost for resource improvement could be 12 points (12 is nice number; can be divided by 2,3,4,6), but if the action is taken outside of its preferred conditions, to the cost will be added another 12 points for every temperature difference step. Suppressing conditions by solar mirrors/reflectors will halve the penalty.
Example 1: Improving volatiles on hot Arid planet will cost base 12 + penalty for volatiles hot to cold difference + 12*2 = 36, but with reflectors: 12 + 24/2 =24 points.
Example 2: Improving food on hot Terran planet with solar mirrors will cost base 12 + 12/2 penalty for food normal to hot difference + 12/2 penalty for improving not normal Terran = 24 points
Example 3: Improving volatiles on very hot Jungle planet will cost: base 12 + 36 penalty for volatiles very hot to cold difference + 12 penalty for improving not on the hot Jungle (no suppression can be made) = 60 points
Example 4: Improving organics on very hot Jungle planet will cost: base 12 + 12 penalty for organics very hot to hot difference + 12 penalty for improving not on the hot Jungle (no suppression can be made) = 36 points
Example 5: Improving food on very hot Jungle planet will cost: base 12 + 24 penalty for food very hot to normal difference + 12 penalty for improving not on the hot Jungle (no suppression can be made) = 48 points
Atmospheric improvements also should have a cost f.e. 12 or 24 points?
Changing planet type - 48 points?
Terraforming points should prevent creating extremely hot/cold monstrosities that i mentioned before. A hope it is doable.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 109 110 [111] 112 113 ... 121