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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: [0.97a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v9.0.7)  (Read 1071103 times)

boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1590 on: January 06, 2022, 11:32:38 AM »

I was also thinking that more could be done with Cloning, but didn't suggest it because I felt it would've been less TASC and more IndEvo. Might as well do it now that someone else brought it up.

My idea was that it could be used to create pop 7 colonies. Of course, this function would have to be barred behind something like a quest, the abuse of story points, or a single-use colony item(like a "Pando Device," after the massive clonal colony of quaking aspen,) but it would certainly be nice to have more options to break the pop limit.

Cloning is non-default so I don't want to spend too much time developing unique mechanics for it. Also, I agree that something like this is more appropriate for IndEvo.
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SeanNorm

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1592 on: January 06, 2022, 06:55:57 PM »

Would adding this mod mid-save be risky at all? Or does it require a new game?

Sorry that this has almost certainly been asked before, probably multiple times but I seem to be struggling to find a good answer.

Thank you for any help, and thank you enormously for the work you do for StarSector.
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SpiderPsycho

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1593 on: January 06, 2022, 10:31:53 PM »

Great mod, both this and DIY are great.

One question though, is there a way to lower the negative modifier to defense that domed cities give in settings? Perhaps alternatively, instead of spending a story point to increase stability, you can use one to lower the negative modifier.

Or perhaps there's an upgrade that needs transplutonics, metal and maybe domain artifacts to turn them into fortified domes, which removes or partially mitigates the 0.05x defense modifier.
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1594 on: January 07, 2022, 05:49:57 AM »

Would adding this mod mid-save be risky at all? Or does it require a new game?

Sorry that this has almost certainly been asked before, probably multiple times but I seem to be struggling to find a good answer.

Thank you for any help, and thank you enormously for the work you do for StarSector.

This mod is safe to add to an ongoing save. You cannot remove it safely once added. I hope you enjoy the mod!

Great mod, both this and DIY are great.

One question though, is there a way to lower the negative modifier to defense that domed cities give in settings? Perhaps alternatively, instead of spending a story point to increase stability, you can use one to lower the negative modifier.

Or perhaps there's an upgrade that needs transplutonics, metal and maybe domain artifacts to turn them into fortified domes, which removes or partially mitigates the 0.05x defense modifier.

There's no easy way to edit the ground defense malus without editing the source code and recompiling.

I don't think providing a means to mitigate the ground defense malus would be good for gameplay. I want to avoid a scenario where there's an "optimal" colony configuration - this creates very boring and repetitive gameplay where the player just makes a bunch of identical colonies. The ground defense malus forces the player to seriously consider whether building Domed Cities on a given colony is worth it, depending on the conditions on the planet and other factors.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 05:57:25 AM by boggled »
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Kiith

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1595 on: January 08, 2022, 02:03:50 AM »

Is there any way to increase a Mining Stations output? Thought there might be some was to improve the ore/rare ore. No worries if not, mainly built it to supply water to other planets.

Also, any way to add stable points for systems without them? That'd be really handy.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 02:26:46 AM by Kiith »
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Serenitis

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1596 on: January 08, 2022, 08:21:46 AM »

Having had chance to mess with stuff for a while, I've found myself disappointed that stellar reflectors don't have any effect on extreme temperatures.
I was rather hoping they would mitigate half of the condition to get the hazard effectively moved a single step closer to optimal, in the same way the lesser temperatures are.
But nope. Nothing at all.
This also creates a contradictory situation where a habitable planet can also have an extreme temperature, which is not possible in the base game since they are mutually exclusive conditions.
(Well technically, habitable can't exist in extreme temps and temperature is generated first so it never has to care...)

The reflectors could be made to avoid this. Leave the original condition in place to prevent chain terraforming into uniformity, and ditch the hazard from the condition. Same as for hot/cold.
But add in an extra bit that puts half the hazard back to provide the 'corrected' condition.
The planet still has an extreme temperature, but the reflectors have mitigated that so 'technically' no rules are being broken.
In essence reflectors always provide -25% hazard for temperature. No more. No less.

I really like this approach to terraforming as well.
It prevents everything always being taken to the same endpoint, and puts additional constraints on what is possible in a believable manner.
And sets the possible limits based on the original conditions of the planet rather than it's current condition.
So good.

I do still think Deserts and Arids are super not the same though. :P


Is there any way to increase a Mining Stations output? Thought there might be some was to improve the ore/rare ore. No worries if not, mainly built it to supply water to other planets.

Also, any way to add stable points for systems without them? That'd be really handy.

The mining item works on stations.
And there's a mod setting that changes the yield of mining stations based on how many asteroid fields there are in the system, which is p. nice.
Don't think it works retroactively though.

Stable points can be added even in vanilla.
Pay a visit to the star and you'll get some hints.
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1597 on: January 08, 2022, 08:37:53 AM »

The mod's stellar reflectors simply follow the rules of the 0.95 vanilla reflectors, don't they? Granted, they don't spawn on planets with extreme conditions, so it's nothing vanilla ever had to address, but still.
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1598 on: January 08, 2022, 10:09:35 AM »

Having had chance to mess with stuff for a while, I've found myself disappointed that stellar reflectors don't have any effect on extreme temperatures.
I was rather hoping they would mitigate half of the condition to get the hazard effectively moved a single step closer to optimal, in the same way the lesser temperatures are.
But nope. Nothing at all.
This also creates a contradictory situation where a habitable planet can also have an extreme temperature, which is not possible in the base game since they are mutually exclusive conditions.
(Well technically, habitable can't exist in extreme temps and temperature is generated first so it never has to care...)

The reflectors could be made to avoid this. Leave the original condition in place to prevent chain terraforming into uniformity, and ditch the hazard from the condition. Same as for hot/cold.
But add in an extra bit that puts half the hazard back to provide the 'corrected' condition.
The planet still has an extreme temperature, but the reflectors have mitigated that so 'technically' no rules are being broken.
In essence reflectors always provide -25% hazard for temperature. No more. No less.

I really like this approach to terraforming as well.
It prevents everything always being taken to the same endpoint, and puts additional constraints on what is possible in a believable manner.
And sets the possible limits based on the original conditions of the planet rather than it's current condition.
So good.

I do still think Deserts and Arids are super not the same though. :P

I'm glad you generally like the new terraforming system!

Regarding the Stellar Reflector Array, I think there's both lore and gameplay reasons to prevent it from suppressing extreme temperatures (even partially).

From a lore standpoint, it doesn't make sense to have a planet that's visibly frozen or visibly has magma covering the surface not have an extreme temperature penalty. Also, it's not clear that stellar reflectors would be effective at controlling the temperature someplace like Mercury or Pluto.

From a gameplay standpoint, it reduces complexity (partial suppression would be more complex than no suppression or full suppression, don't have to explain why it doesn't work on volcanic planets), gives the Fusion Lamp a unique role, and makes it more interesting for the player to evaluate the suitability of a planet for terraforming (ex. planets with extreme heat won't be able to suppress that condition, planets with extreme cold will require a fusion lamp).

I can understand why some players might prefer your partial suppression mechanic, but I think the current system will generally provide the best gameplay experience and is acceptable from a lore standpoint.

The mod's stellar reflectors simply follow the rules of the 0.95 vanilla reflectors, don't they? Granted, they don't spawn on planets with extreme conditions, so it's nothing vanilla ever had to address, but still.

In vanilla, the solar arrays only suppress hot and poor light. I overwrote the condition to add cold suppression and link the condition to the Stellar Reflector Array building.

Is there any way to increase a Mining Stations output? Thought there might be some was to improve the ore/rare ore. No worries if not, mainly built it to supply water to other planets.

Also, any way to add stable points for systems without them? That'd be really handy.

The mining item works on stations.
And there's a mod setting that changes the yield of mining stations based on how many asteroid fields there are in the system, which is p. nice.
Don't think it works retroactively though.

Stable points can be added even in vanilla.
Pay a visit to the star and you'll get some hints.

You can also enable the AI Mining Drones building in the settings file, which will drastically increase mining station production.
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Droll

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1599 on: January 08, 2022, 04:18:36 PM »

Speaking of the fusion lamp, I've got a couple planets in a nebula with fusion lamps mitigating both the full dankness and extreme cold penalties, however I need to build stellar reflectors in order to terraform the planet to a different type, which aren't allowed because there is no star as a primary. It makes sense that stellar reflectors would be redundant with a fusion lamp but I would like to be able to turn a barren world with a fusion lamp and 100% hazard into a tundra (I have water from a cryovolcanic) and I think it makes sense given that the fusion lamp outright solves extreme temperature and full darkness.

Would this be possible? I am fully aware that such an exception clause to terraforming would add complexity and also the fact that you can just take out the fusion lamp which could be weird with a tundra world in a nebula (unless you add code to revert back to barren in a month or smth).

I just think having a habitable planet just derping about in a nebula thanks to what is essentially a star in a bottle is really cool.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 04:20:17 PM by Droll »
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1600 on: January 08, 2022, 05:47:36 PM »

Fusion lamps being used for terraforming would make sense, but there would have to be some sort of mechanism in place to prevent players from filling nebulae with pleasant planets by just passing a single Fusion Lamp from one planet to another. I can think of three ways to do it:
1. Post-terraforming, the Fusion Lamp is locked to Population and Infrastructure or consumed while the campaign object somehow remains.
2. Post-terraforming, the Fusion Lamp is consumed and replaced by a structure much like the reflectors.
3. Star-less planets terraformed by the Fusion Lamp start refreezing if the Fusion Lamp is removed.
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JustThatGoo

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1601 on: January 08, 2022, 07:18:49 PM »

Playing with Unknown skies and this, building Domed Cities to suppress Parasitic Spores only seems to suppress the population boost, minimal stability and removal of drug needs. I think the production loss is still associated with the condition though as the planet and other planets in the system report a -25% fleet quality from the market condition
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1602 on: January 08, 2022, 07:22:53 PM »

Speaking of the fusion lamp, I've got a couple planets in a nebula with fusion lamps mitigating both the full dankness and extreme cold penalties, however I need to build stellar reflectors in order to terraform the planet to a different type, which aren't allowed because there is no star as a primary. It makes sense that stellar reflectors would be redundant with a fusion lamp but I would like to be able to turn a barren world with a fusion lamp and 100% hazard into a tundra (I have water from a cryovolcanic) and I think it makes sense given that the fusion lamp outright solves extreme temperature and full darkness.

Would this be possible? I am fully aware that such an exception clause to terraforming would add complexity and also the fact that you can just take out the fusion lamp which could be weird with a tundra world in a nebula (unless you add code to revert back to barren in a month or smth).

I just think having a habitable planet just derping about in a nebula thanks to what is essentially a star in a bottle is really cool.

Uhlang pretty much summarized my thinking - the planet would have to "deterraform" or revert if the player removed the Fusion Lamp, since an Earth-like biosphere can't exist in a nebula without a Fusion Lamp.

Deterraforming is possible to implement, and was present in a previous version of the mod at one point. Unfortunately, with the 8.0.0 terraforming system, the logic to control it would be convoluted and take a good amount of work to implement and test. I may add it at some point in the future when I have the time.

Playing with Unknown skies and this, building Domed Cities to suppress Parasitic Spores only seems to suppress the population boost, minimal stability and removal of drug needs. I think the production loss is still associated with the condition though as the planet and other planets in the system report a -25% fleet quality from the market condition

Interesting. I'll take a look at this and see if I can fix it.
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Yunru

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1603 on: January 09, 2022, 01:22:31 AM »

What if you removed the Fusion Lamp item once terraforming starts, and replace it with a Fusion Lamp condition?

JustThatGoo

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1604 on: January 09, 2022, 03:11:03 AM »

Not really sure why or how but the Parasitic Spores did end up being suppressed fully. I think exiting the game fixed it or leaving my system and coming back in? Just wasn't being updated fully I guess
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