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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: The Pilgrim's Path (07/19/22)

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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.1.5)  (Read 564075 times)

A_Random_Dude

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1530 on: December 06, 2021, 09:18:31 AM »

Quote
You mean an industry kind of like the Kletka Simulator, but for special items? That might work, although I don't think it would make sense to put it on NPC colonies to create demand for DEA. From a lore standpoint, why would NPC colonies have a factory to build special items but not have any installed in their buildings?

I edited my comment (probably a little too late) to switch the item thing to a potentially abandonned station drifting in unexplored systems. Though I must say that the idea of an industry that can be built both by the player and by npc worlds would've been really interesting if they could use those special items too, indeed.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2021, 09:27:53 AM by A_Random_Dude »
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1531 on: December 06, 2021, 10:26:47 AM »

Quote
You mean an industry kind of like the Kletka Simulator, but for special items? That might work, although I don't think it would make sense to put it on NPC colonies to create demand for DEA. From a lore standpoint, why would NPC colonies have a factory to build special items but not have any installed in their buildings?

I edited my comment (probably a little too late) to switch the item thing to a potentially abandonned station drifting in unexplored systems. Though I must say that the idea of an industry that can be built both by the player and by npc worlds would've been really interesting if they could use those special items too, indeed.

So, an abandoned station built during the Domain-era that was a factory to produce special items? Something that valuable would probably have to be guarded by powerful remnants, and have some sort of unique quest to discover it and explain how it works to the player. The scope for that is probably too big for this mod and would be better left to vanilla, or a mod that solely implements that quest.

The problem is I can't overwrite the default farming and/or population buildings to accept a custom special item.

The Relay Hypertransmitters added by Industrial Evolution can be installed in vanilla Military Bases/High Commands, so unless Hartley did something outrageous there, it's doable.
Unless you mean that you'd just prefer to avoid tinkering with vanilla industries, in which case: I can respect that.

I wasn't aware Hartley's implementation was possible. That does open up making stellar reflectors a special item to be installed in vanilla buildings, and selling them to NPC colonies to introduce a DEA demand would be nice. I still see some problems:

1. Installing the stellar reflector item would preclude installation of the fusion lamp or hypershunt, right? Given the similarities between the fusion lamp and reflectors, this is probably not a good idea.

2. How could I communicate to the player in a concise way that they should sell stellar reflectors to NPC colonies to generate revenue with Domain Archaeology?

3. Even if the player knew about this mechanic, they would likely choose to keep the stellar reflectors for themselves to enable terraforming and boost farming output.

I can think of some other uses for this though - maybe split up the genelab functions into different special items, and put a few on vanilla colonies to generate DEA demand. For example, I could put a lobster-seeding special item in the aquaculture industry on Volturn.

My historians offered me the locations of special items a good bunch of times(and not just ones you can get by raiding core worlds). Some problems with that, though:
-You first need to give them all the donations they ask for
-If your playstyle leans towards exploration(like mine), by the time you give them the donations and meet them again, there's a good chance that you'll already have the special item they'll offer directions to
-It costs a whole 4 story points, which again isn't worth it if you tend to explore everything
So yeah, provided it's sufficiently demanding, I'd say that a DEA-based special item crafting system would have its place.

That's good to know. I'll see about implementing this in the next patch.
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Yunru

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1532 on: December 06, 2021, 10:31:13 AM »

1. Installing the stellar reflector item would preclude installation of the fusion lamp or hypershunt, right? Given the similarities between the fusion lamp and reflectors, this is probably not a good idea.
I don't think there's any special items for the Spaceport, and it would still be a thematic match?

boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1533 on: December 06, 2021, 10:33:53 AM »

1. Installing the stellar reflector item would preclude installation of the fusion lamp or hypershunt, right? Given the similarities between the fusion lamp and reflectors, this is probably not a good idea.
I don't think there's any special items for the Spaceport, and it would still be a thematic match?

Spaceport has the Fullerene Spool, and I think Alex said he's going to make Eventide have one in vanilla. Since Eventide also has reflectors in orbit, that would create a conflict.
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1534 on: December 06, 2021, 01:45:57 PM »

1. Installing the stellar reflector item would preclude installation of the fusion lamp or hypershunt, right? Given the similarities between the fusion lamp and reflectors, this is probably not a good idea.

Anyone who chanced upon a Hypershunt Tap and did what has to be done to harness its power probably has multiple colonies which could make good use of it, and I doubt that they would all have Stellar Reflectors taking the Tap's place.

I see your point about the Fusion Lamp and Reflector(item) relationship, though. Itemized Reflectors would outclass the Lamps in any situation where they overlap(that being Cold and Poor Light worlds) and since Extreme Cold is good for Kletkas and IndEvo's Supercomputers, the only real use for Lamps would be on worlds that are completely dark.
The problem there is that that is the situation we have now. Reflector structures defeat the point of Fusion Lamps on anything but dark worlds just as well as the Reflector items would.
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1535 on: December 06, 2021, 02:33:48 PM »

1. Installing the stellar reflector item would preclude installation of the fusion lamp or hypershunt, right? Given the similarities between the fusion lamp and reflectors, this is probably not a good idea.

Anyone who chanced upon a Hypershunt Tap and did what has to be done to harness its power probably has multiple colonies which could make good use of it, and I doubt that they would all have Stellar Reflectors taking the Tap's place.

I see your point about the Fusion Lamp and Reflector(item) relationship, though. Itemized Reflectors would outclass the Lamps in any situation where they overlap(that being Cold and Poor Light worlds) and since Extreme Cold is good for Kletkas and IndEvo's Supercomputers, the only real use for Lamps would be on worlds that are completely dark.
The problem there is that that is the situation we have now. Reflector structures defeat the point of Fusion Lamps on anything but dark worlds just as well as the Reflector items would.

It's true the current implementation of stellar reflectors is similar to the fusion lamp in terms of effects on the colony, but there's a number of major differences:

1. Players will be confused why two almost-identical special items exist, and what the subtle differences are.

2. A new player can immediately learn about stellar reflectors from the colony build menu, as that's the first thing they'll look at once they found a colony. With an itemized reflector, I would have to find some way to communicate to new players that it exists and how to obtain it, since it's a requirement for terraforming projects. That would be clunky and confusing, and I deliberately tried to avoid creating any terraforming requirements that aren't self-explanatory.

3. If the player disables the Domain-Tech features of the mod, they'll be unable to craft itemized reflectors. If they're reliant on RNG to obtain one, this will bring back a problem with the EUTECK - many players couldn't use terraforming because they couldn't find one.

4. An itemized reflector could be stolen from Eventide or Eochu Bres by the player, which is bad from a gameplay and lore standpoint.
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1536 on: December 06, 2021, 03:38:07 PM »

4. An itemized reflector could be stolen from Eventide or Eochu Bres by the player, which is bad from a gameplay and lore standpoint.

The Pristine Nanoforge at Chico is even more important to the Hegemony than Eventide's reflectors, yet you have tons of players treating it like it's theirs.
Honestly, it's a bit a failure on the lore's part that something as basic as stellar reflectors are these irreplaceable relics rather than everyday objects you can find on any civilized planet that's a bit too hot or cold. A civilization that can build and maintain Star Fortresses would have no trouble building and maintaining what are essentially just big mirrors and shades, and in the turbulent post-Collapse times, getting such infrastructure destroyed or stolen wouldn't be a disaster, but "just another Tuesday." A realistic Eventide or Eochu Bres would have replacements ready to be deployed within a week at most.

I went off on a tangent there, but good points otherwise. Itemized reflectors are cool, but not quite worth the effort, I guess.
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Yunru

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1537 on: December 06, 2021, 04:18:16 PM »

Well I look forward to being able to craft colony items with DEA.
Even if they don't get a demand, I'm going to want a surplus for that alone.

EDIT: Ohh, thought! What if you add an invisible market to the Galatia Academy that has a custom building that demands it?

IonDragonX

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1538 on: December 06, 2021, 07:15:36 PM »

EDIT: Ohh, thought! What if you add an invisible market to the Galatia Academy that has a custom building that demands it?
In the base game, Galatia Academy is a market that is not in the economy nor in the rules like every other market. Have you ever noticed that GA isn't on the starsystem map? That's wrong if it is a station, all the stations are on the starsystem maps.
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1540 on: December 07, 2021, 02:29:53 PM »

EDIT: Ohh, thought! What if you add an invisible market to the Galatia Academy that has a custom building that demands it?
In the base game, Galatia Academy is a market that is not in the economy nor in the rules like every other market. Have you ever noticed that GA isn't on the starsystem map? That's wrong if it is a station, all the stations are on the starsystem maps.

It is for me! Although I think that's because Industrial Evolution sticks one there with an Academy.

Hmm, sounds like I shouldn't try to mess with the Galatia Academy station itself. Maybe I'll put a building on Ancyra like "Big Tachyon Collider" that demands DEA and says in the description that Academy researchers operate it.
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Yunru

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1541 on: December 07, 2021, 03:20:36 PM »

You could put them on other colonies too: I can't imagine TriTach doesn't have a vested interest in DEA, for example.

A random douche

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1542 on: December 09, 2021, 01:32:50 AM »

This is a great mod! Thank you for making it, but I'm not sure if I'm stupid or what, but I for the love of me cannot find Asteroid Processing. It is not even as a structure that cannot be built, it is just NOT there. Is there a prerequisite of some kind for me to be able to have the option to build one?
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A_Random_Dude

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1543 on: December 09, 2021, 02:12:58 AM »

The option doesn't appear in the Industries.csv file either. Have you tried building the Ismara's Sling? Could be a project that works for both planets and asteroids. Didn't try it myself though.

Also, obligatory "Nice username"!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 02:32:11 AM by A_Random_Dude »
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)
« Reply #1544 on: December 09, 2021, 03:10:51 PM »

This is a great mod! Thank you for making it, but I'm not sure if I'm stupid or what, but I for the love of me cannot find Asteroid Processing. It is not even as a structure that cannot be built, it is just NOT there. Is there a prerequisite of some kind for me to be able to have the option to build one?

Ismara's Sling can only be constructed on water and frozen worlds, and asteroid processing can only be constructed on stations. They're the same building, but with a different "mode" based on what type of colony the player is interacting with (like farming and aquaculture). I forgot to add a note to the mod guide about this - sorry!
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