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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Skill Changes, Part 2 (07/15/21)

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Author Topic: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.3)  (Read 330237 times)

boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1245 on: May 10, 2021, 09:32:26 AM »

Realistically, Ismara's Sling should give an accessibility bonus.
Mass drivers and launch loops are often mentioned alongside space elevators and skyhooks as means of cheaply going to space, so having them and using them solely for the purpose of transporting water-ice seems silly.

If I do that then I would have to make the sling buildable on all planet types because launch loops could be constructed almost anywhere. I don't want to have the primary purpose of the sling be increasing accessibility - it should be for terraforming, and perhaps have a niche side bonus.
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Arcalane

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1246 on: May 10, 2021, 10:00:36 AM »

Improving planetary defense, perhaps? Think about it, if the reflector array is basically a big space mirror, what happens if you focus all that light onto a much smaller point as opposed to a diffuse scattering over a large portion of the planet? ;)

Handwave concerns with some stuff about needing the massive processing power of an AI core to do it in a way that won't damage the reflector or cause collateral damage to structures and defenders on the ground, if it needs handwaving.

Likewise for Ismara's Sling - having to navigate around/avoid incoming projectiles on approach would make invasions harder. That, or perhaps it could increase the resource output of any Mining/Void Extraction Industries in the same system if that's plausible.

The "sun gun" concept is interesting and has a real life basis. I'll probably implement that in a future patch.

I think it would work from a coding standpoint to have the sling boost production in-system, but I'm not sure how that would make sense from a lore/realism standpoint.

Normally the Sling launches ice asteroids, but why couldn't it launch other mineral-rich asteroids during downtime? Sometimes it can be cheaper to repurpose hardware so that it does something else when it's not needed for its primary purpose rather than shut it down and reboot it when it's needed again.

I'm not exactly sure how to justify using an AI core to unlock that particular perk, but it doesn't seem that strange to me that you could fling a few different asteroids to different destinations now and then.

Accessibility bonus might be neat and makes sense, but I can't see it being more than 10-15% or else it'll basically be a mandatory thing unless it takes an Industry slot.
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Anrock

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1247 on: May 10, 2021, 12:04:21 PM »

Improving planetary defense, perhaps? Think about it, if the reflector array is basically a big space mirror, what happens if you focus all that light onto a much smaller point as opposed to a diffuse scattering over a large portion of the planet? ;)

Handwave concerns with some stuff about needing the massive processing power of an AI core to do it in a way that won't damage the reflector or cause collateral damage to structures and defenders on the ground, if it needs handwaving.

Likewise for Ismara's Sling - having to navigate around/avoid incoming projectiles on approach would make invasions harder. That, or perhaps it could increase the resource output of any Mining/Void Extraction Industries in the same system if that's plausible.

The "sun gun" concept is interesting and has a real life basis. I'll probably implement that in a future patch.

I think it would work from a coding standpoint to have the sling boost production in-system, but I'm not sure how that would make sense from a lore/realism standpoint.

I'm not exactly sure how to justify using an AI core to unlock that particular perk, but it doesn't seem that strange to me that you could fling a few different asteroids to different destinations now and then.

It says that Slingshot "was designed by copying ... remaining mass drivers ... built ... before Collapse". I think this can be stretched into "we made a perfect copy because we don't exactly know why it was designed as it was designed and as a consequence we only know how to operate it in one specific mode (i.e. terraforming by slinging ice asteroids)".

Added AI Core can reverse engineer the design and learn how to operate it in other mode, i.e. to sling other types of things into other types of targets.

Lore-wise Beta (or even Gamma) AI is sufficient enough to allow to sling different types of asteroids (ice and ore asteroids are similar enough so you just have to make minor adjustments to operating parameters of a Sling to sling ore instead of ice)

While Alpha, with its unique creativity aspect, can also allow to sling asteroids (or something else) to different types of targets (so not originally intended operating mode of a Sling, hence creativity aspect). Like for example slinging dense packets of metal slugs into incoming ships.

Conclusion:
* No cores: ice asteroids payload to desert planets => terraforming
* Beta core: also ore asteroids payload to any planet => terraforming + mining (on Sling market) / refining effectiveness (whole system)
* Alpha core: also metal slugs to any target => all of the above + defence boost if flat heavy machinery and metals demand is met.
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1248 on: May 10, 2021, 12:29:49 PM »

Improving planetary defense, perhaps? Think about it, if the reflector array is basically a big space mirror, what happens if you focus all that light onto a much smaller point as opposed to a diffuse scattering over a large portion of the planet? ;)

Handwave concerns with some stuff about needing the massive processing power of an AI core to do it in a way that won't damage the reflector or cause collateral damage to structures and defenders on the ground, if it needs handwaving.

Likewise for Ismara's Sling - having to navigate around/avoid incoming projectiles on approach would make invasions harder. That, or perhaps it could increase the resource output of any Mining/Void Extraction Industries in the same system if that's plausible.

The "sun gun" concept is interesting and has a real life basis. I'll probably implement that in a future patch.

I think it would work from a coding standpoint to have the sling boost production in-system, but I'm not sure how that would make sense from a lore/realism standpoint.

Normally the Sling launches ice asteroids, but why couldn't it launch other mineral-rich asteroids during downtime? Sometimes it can be cheaper to repurpose hardware so that it does something else when it's not needed for its primary purpose rather than shut it down and reboot it when it's needed again.

I'm not exactly sure how to justify using an AI core to unlock that particular perk, but it doesn't seem that strange to me that you could fling a few different asteroids to different destinations now and then.

Accessibility bonus might be neat and makes sense, but I can't see it being more than 10-15% or else it'll basically be a mandatory thing unless it takes an Industry slot.

If the sling is built on a water planet, launching ore-rich payloads doesn't make sense. Plus, if the ore is already mined, why would it need to be loaded into the sling and launched someplace else?

Improving planetary defense, perhaps? Think about it, if the reflector array is basically a big space mirror, what happens if you focus all that light onto a much smaller point as opposed to a diffuse scattering over a large portion of the planet? ;)

Handwave concerns with some stuff about needing the massive processing power of an AI core to do it in a way that won't damage the reflector or cause collateral damage to structures and defenders on the ground, if it needs handwaving.

Likewise for Ismara's Sling - having to navigate around/avoid incoming projectiles on approach would make invasions harder. That, or perhaps it could increase the resource output of any Mining/Void Extraction Industries in the same system if that's plausible.

The "sun gun" concept is interesting and has a real life basis. I'll probably implement that in a future patch.

I think it would work from a coding standpoint to have the sling boost production in-system, but I'm not sure how that would make sense from a lore/realism standpoint.

I'm not exactly sure how to justify using an AI core to unlock that particular perk, but it doesn't seem that strange to me that you could fling a few different asteroids to different destinations now and then.

It says that Slingshot "was designed by copying ... remaining mass drivers ... built ... before Collapse". I think this can be stretched into "we made a perfect copy because we don't exactly know why it was designed as it was designed and as a consequence we only know how to operate it in one specific mode (i.e. terraforming by slinging ice asteroids)".

Added AI Core can reverse engineer the design and learn how to operate it in other mode, i.e. to sling other types of things into other types of targets.

Lore-wise Beta (or even Gamma) AI is sufficient enough to allow to sling different types of asteroids (ice and ore asteroids are similar enough so you just have to make minor adjustments to operating parameters of a Sling to sling ore instead of ice)

While Alpha, with its unique creativity aspect, can also allow to sling asteroids (or something else) to different types of targets (so not originally intended operating mode of a Sling, hence creativity aspect). Like for example slinging dense packets of metal slugs into incoming ships.

Conclusion:
* No cores: ice asteroids payload to desert planets => terraforming
* Beta core: also ore asteroids payload to any planet => terraforming + mining (on Sling market) / refining effectiveness (whole system)
* Alpha core: also metal slugs to any target => all of the above + defence boost if flat heavy machinery and metals demand is met.

That adds quite a bit of complexity, and doesn't address the problem that I would have to make the sling buildable on all planet types, instead of just water and cryovolcanic planets. A general-purpose launch loop that does the things listed above likely doesn't belong in a terraforming mod - it would be more appropriate in a mod like Industrial Evolution.
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1249 on: May 10, 2021, 03:22:15 PM »

You could add something like this to the description:
Quote
These mass drivers were designed solely with terraforming in mind and were subject to strict pre-Collapse laws meant to limit misapplications such as weaponization and smuggling. A hardcoded failsafe in their exclusive software precludes their construction on planets without an abundance of water-ice.
We now have items with similar restrictions, so the existence of structures just as picky would make sense, if you ask me.
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tzuridis

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1250 on: May 10, 2021, 03:54:56 PM »

I am getting a ctd that says

JSONObject["boggledHarmonicDamperEnabled"] not found

Any idea?

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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1251 on: May 10, 2021, 06:03:48 PM »

I am getting a ctd that says

JSONObject["boggledHarmonicDamperEnabled"] not found

Any idea?



Try deleting the TASC mod folder and re-downloading it. Don't save your settings file since that's likely causing the issue. Let me know if this resolves the problem.
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ozemandea

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1252 on: May 10, 2021, 08:48:01 PM »

Here is a suggestion, why not add in an item that can be found while salvaging that when installed inside a domed cities building, counters the effects of high or low gravity.

Call it a MacroGravity generator or something along those lines, that projects a localized field around the domed city that either raises or lowers the gravity within to earth normal. The generator can only be projected around a relatively small area and as such cannot be used to effect the entire planets gravity (I don't know how the code works, but this would be a great excuse as to why the generator does not remove the accessibility bonus/malus from gravity effects, as the planets gravity itself is not changed, it just makes it more habitable)

The gravity field also needs positive and negative surfaces, the domes floor and ceiling respectively, to operate properly. That way you can explain why it cannot be installed within the infrastructure building and instead must be used within the domed city.

This way you can have the harmonic damper building only effect tectonics and allow a more esoteric and hard to find item counteract gravity in a more believable way.

I don't know it this is possible to code in or not so don't get too mad if I am asking the impossible lol. Also I don't know how you would use this on a world with both high/low gravity and tectonics ... as you cannot build domed cities on such a world this basically locks you out of removing the high/low gravity with the item.
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1253 on: May 11, 2021, 04:08:09 AM »

Here is a suggestion, why not add in an item that can be found while salvaging that when installed inside a domed cities building, counters the effects of high or low gravity.

Call it a MacroGravity generator or something along those lines, that projects a localized field around the domed city that either raises or lowers the gravity within to earth normal. The generator can only be projected around a relatively small area and as such cannot be used to effect the entire planets gravity (I don't know how the code works, but this would be a great excuse as to why the generator does not remove the accessibility bonus/malus from gravity effects, as the planets gravity itself is not changed, it just makes it more habitable)

The gravity field also needs positive and negative surfaces, the domes floor and ceiling respectively, to operate properly. That way you can explain why it cannot be installed within the infrastructure building and instead must be used within the domed city.

This way you can have the harmonic damper building only effect tectonics and allow a more esoteric and hard to find item counteract gravity in a more believable way.

I don't know it this is possible to code in or not so don't get too mad if I am asking the impossible lol. Also I don't know how you would use this on a world with both high/low gravity and tectonics ... as you cannot build domed cities on such a world this basically locks you out of removing the high/low gravity with the item.

I think this is a pretty good idea! I'll consider implementing it for the next patch. My only reservation is diluting loot drops by adding too many niche or terraforming-specific special items, but I'll see if I can find a way around that.
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Arcalane

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1254 on: May 11, 2021, 09:02:11 AM »

I think this is a pretty good idea! I'll consider implementing it for the next patch. My only reservation is diluting loot drops by adding too many niche or terraforming-specific special items, but I'll see if I can find a way around that.

Allow its installation in defensive structures as well, for an increase to defensive strength, instant less-niche/terraforming-specificness. Localized gravity manipulation is a very potent tool even if it can't be ramped up to the point of being outright lethal, especially if it's capable of fluctuating unpredictably.

What's that, you wanted to throw a grenade? Too bad, it weighs three times as much due to subjective gravity and lands way too short of the target. Have fun flying that dropship when subjective gravity is rubberbanding between 0.25 and 2g. And so on.

That or it could probably improve the output/reduce the resource requirements of almost any facility.
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1255 on: May 11, 2021, 09:48:20 AM »

I think this is a pretty good idea! I'll consider implementing it for the next patch. My only reservation is diluting loot drops by adding too many niche or terraforming-specific special items, but I'll see if I can find a way around that.

Allow its installation in defensive structures as well, for an increase to defensive strength, instant less-niche/terraforming-specificness. Localized gravity manipulation is a very potent tool even if it can't be ramped up to the point of being outright lethal, especially if it's capable of fluctuating unpredictably.

What's that, you wanted to throw a grenade? Too bad, it weighs three times as much due to subjective gravity and lands way too short of the target. Have fun flying that dropship when subjective gravity is rubberbanding between 0.25 and 2g. And so on.

That or it could probably improve the output/reduce the resource requirements of almost any facility.

Unfortunately I can't make a special item installable in a vanilla building (like the orbital station or ground defenses) because it would cause a conflict with any other mod that makes changes to vanilla buildings.
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Arcalane

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1256 on: May 11, 2021, 10:08:46 AM »

...right, I should have figured there would be some kind of issue like that.

Perhaps a low-maintenance structure that basically serves as a hub that does nothing particular itself, but you can install special items into it which then hook into and improve existing buildings/industries indirectly? Some kind of "Engineering Bureau" where teams of specialists try to find unconventional or unintended uses for technology that might otherwise be useless.

Bit of a messy workaround but it would be a bit more flexible perhaps.
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1257 on: May 11, 2021, 10:29:48 AM »

...right, I should have figured there would be some kind of issue like that.

Perhaps a low-maintenance structure that basically serves as a hub that does nothing particular itself, but you can install special items into it which then hook into and improve existing buildings/industries indirectly? Some kind of "Engineering Bureau" where teams of specialists try to find unconventional or unintended uses for technology that might otherwise be useless.

Bit of a messy workaround but it would be a bit more flexible perhaps.

It's an option, but a general-purpose industrial building would be better suited to a mod like Industrial Evolution.
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tzuridis

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1258 on: May 11, 2021, 03:34:35 PM »

That was the issue the settings file

For the missing json error

Thanks
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danielcus

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.1.0)
« Reply #1259 on: May 14, 2021, 06:43:37 PM »

Hello,

I have a question about the terraforming menu on the toolbar. is it gone or is it changed to something else? I remember from the previous version, there was a menu on the toolbar and now I don't see it.

Thanks for making this mod

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