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Author Topic: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v8.0.0)  (Read 395633 times)

tiago_gomestrf

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1170 on: April 26, 2021, 08:52:01 AM »

Yeah, i understand that we can´t please everyone and implementing things takes time but would it be possible to implement a option in the config files to use the old terraform system, i tried the old version in the 0.95.RC15 and its seems to work fine so i think you just need to do some small tweaks to implement again in this version, if you could do this i would be very thankfull :) .
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Ramdat

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1171 on: April 26, 2021, 09:22:42 AM »

Some feedback:

1. The Autonomous AI Battlestation is invisible without the skill. Ideally it would always be visible, but unbuildable without the skill.

Also, I am unsure if it is intended to be much cheaper in both time and money compared to the vanilla Star Fortress.

Star Fortress = 390 days + 1,750,000 credits
AI Battlestation = 120 days + 500,000 credits

2. The Gene Lab building states the completion as a percentage. It would be useful to have a time as well. Also perhaps add this information, and the "stalled due to artifact shortage" message to the terraforming project menu.

3. With all terraforming projects enabled, the new terraforming system feels like issuing console commands through a menu rather than a mechanic integrated into the game. The choices also vary wildly in power but all require consumption of the entire EUTECK. I have no good ideas to improve this, though. As you said, unrestricted terraforming is very difficult to balance, and I will be playing with it disabled anyway. Despite these problems, it's great that you implemented it for people who prefer it. The Paradise world looks pretty good, too.

Domed Cities is not a straight upgrade - the ground defense malus makes invasions trivially easy once the orbital station is destroyed. This mod is intended to be used in conjunction with Nexerelin, where the player's planets face the threat of invasions.

I would say that Domed Cities are a straight upgrade.

1. It suppresses the hazard effects of various planetary conditions without removing them, so that you can still use the vanilla industry items.
2. It provides a small but useful passive growth bonus. Suppressing negative conditions also reduces the price of hazard pay, indirectly increasing growth.
3. Slotted AI cores add stability. Stability increases fleet size and counters maluses such as Free Port.

Even with Nex, it is unlikely that the AI factions will be able to successfully invade the planet. Usually they die to the station+patrols, and are almost guaranteed to die if the player fights alongside the station. The large ground defense malus was never a factor in my 6.0.0 game, since they always died in orbit.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 09:26:19 AM by Ramdat »
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1172 on: April 26, 2021, 10:21:40 AM »

Some feedback:

1. The Autonomous AI Battlestation is invisible without the skill. Ideally it would always be visible, but unbuildable without the skill.

Also, I am unsure if it is intended to be much cheaper in both time and money compared to the vanilla Star Fortress.

Star Fortress = 390 days + 1,750,000 credits
AI Battlestation = 120 days + 500,000 credits

Ok, I will change the AI Battlestation to be visible even without the skill, just not buildable.

It being cheaper and faster to build is intended, because my testing has shown that it's significantly weaker than a star fortress in combat, largely due to the lack of the mine laying ability.

2. The Gene Lab building states the completion as a percentage. It would be useful to have a time as well. Also perhaps add this information, and the "stalled due to artifact shortage" message to the terraforming project menu.

It might be awkward to add a "days remaining" tooltip in addition to the percentage, but I will look into adding more information to the terraforming menu regarding the status of terraforming.

3. With all terraforming projects enabled, the new terraforming system feels like issuing console commands through a menu rather than a mechanic integrated into the game. The choices also vary wildly in power but all require consumption of the entire EUTECK. I have no good ideas to improve this, though. As you said, unrestricted terraforming is very difficult to balance, and I will be playing with it disabled anyway. Despite these problems, it's great that you implemented it for people who prefer it. The Paradise world looks pretty good, too.

This is a valid criticism. I may break down the unrestricted terraforming projects into separate "balanced" and "unbalanced" options in the settings file so players who want the "old style" system but not absolute freedom have more choices. Regarding the lack of integration into the game, this is also a valid criticism, but with the 0.95a changes regarding suppression and the special items, the "old style" terraforming just doesn't make sense anymore. I'm not sure what feedback Alex has received about the special items and suppression mechanic, but I would guess the same players who don't like the new terraforming system also probably don't like those vanilla changes either.

There is an option already to stop consumption of the EUTECK if the player doesn't want to have to find more than one.

I would say that Domed Cities are a straight upgrade.

1. It suppresses the hazard effects of various planetary conditions without removing them, so that you can still use the vanilla industry items.
2. It provides a small but useful passive growth bonus. Suppressing negative conditions also reduces the price of hazard pay, indirectly increasing growth.
3. Slotted AI cores add stability. Stability increases fleet size and counters maluses such as Free Port.

Even with Nex, it is unlikely that the AI factions will be able to successfully invade the planet. Usually they die to the station+patrols, and are almost guaranteed to die if the player fights alongside the station. The large ground defense malus was never a factor in my 6.0.0 game, since they always died in orbit.

When the player actively defends their colonies there is no realistic chance of defeat, but NPC faction planets get invaded successfully on a regular basis if the player doesn't intervene. Maybe there have been changes to Nexerelin in 0.95a that make this less common, but it my past experiences Domed Cities would be a major detriment on certain planets, especially in Hybrasil and Valhalla, which frequently get invaded if there's a war between TT and the Hegemony.

Yeah, i understand that we can´t please everyone and implementing things takes time but would it be possible to implement a option in the config files to use the old terraform system, i tried the old version in the 0.95.RC15 and its seems to work fine so i think you just need to do some small tweaks to implement again in this version, if you could do this i would be very thankfull :) .

This is something I will consider, but the problem is the buildings that provided terraforming points have been given new functions. What about the old system did you like that's not present in the new one - the points system, the specific options for terraforming, the lack of needing a Genelab or EUTECK?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 10:39:46 AM by boggled »
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Ramdat

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1173 on: April 26, 2021, 10:56:56 AM »

It being cheaper and faster to build is intended, because my testing has shown that it's significantly weaker than a star fortress in combat, largely due to the lack of the mine laying ability.
Oh, I thought it was stronger, since it is a Remnant. I didn't have time to test it's combat ability.

It might be awkward to add a "days remaining" tooltip in addition to the percentage, but I will look into adding more information to the terraforming menu regarding the status of terraforming.
Maybe change it from percentage to time rather than listing both? If the terraforming time is 400 days, "200 days remaining" instead of "50% complete" feels better, even though they convey the same information.

I may break down the unrestricted terraforming projects into separate "balanced" and "unbalanced" options in the settings file so players who want the "old style" system but not absolute freedom have more choices.
Yeah, a more granular and customizable approach would be ideal. So far your customization options have been very well done.

Regarding the lack of integration into the game, this is also a valid criticism, but with the 0.95a changes regarding suppression and the special items, the "old style" terraforming just doesn't make sense anymore. I'm not sure what feedback Alex has received about the special items and suppression mechanic, but I would guess the same players who don't like the new terraforming system also probably don't like those vanilla changes either.
It's a difficult problem to solve. I would guess that people who dislike the restrictions would use a mod like modified industry requirements in conjunction with your unrestricted terraforming system.

When the player actively defends their colonies there is no realistic chance of defeat, but NPC faction planets get invaded successfully on a regular basis if the player doesn't intervene. Maybe there have been changes to Nexerelin in 0.95a that make this less common, but it my past experiences Domed Cities would be a major detriment on certain planets, especially in Hybrasil and Valhalla, which frequently get invaded if there's a war between TT and the Hegemony.
NPC factions can build it? I agree that NPCs building it on their planets would be a bad idea since they cannot adequately defend them. I meant that for the player, it is a direct upgrade since there is no realistic chance for defeat. I thought you meant that it is not a direct upgrade for players because you mentioned that Nex adds invasions to player planets.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 11:03:28 AM by Ramdat »
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Tase

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1174 on: April 26, 2021, 11:28:33 AM »

Is this mod compatible with an existing save game? Didn't see any mention of this in the posting
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1175 on: April 26, 2021, 11:58:45 AM »

Is this mod compatible with an existing save game? Didn't see any mention of this in the posting

Yes, you can add the mod to an existing save game without any problems. However, TASC 7.0.0 is not backwards compatible with previous versions of TASC if they're already in the save.

When the player actively defends their colonies there is no realistic chance of defeat, but NPC faction planets get invaded successfully on a regular basis if the player doesn't intervene. Maybe there have been changes to Nexerelin in 0.95a that make this less common, but it my past experiences Domed Cities would be a major detriment on certain planets, especially in Hybrasil and Valhalla, which frequently get invaded if there's a war between TT and the Hegemony.
NPC factions can build it? I agree that NPCs building it on their planets would be a bad idea since they cannot adequately defend them. I meant that for the player, it is a direct upgrade since there is no realistic chance for defeat. I thought you meant that it is not a direct upgrade for players because you mentioned that Nex adds invasions to player planets.

No, NPCs cannot build it. My point was that if the player doesn't actively intervene in invasions to make them fail, the ground defense malus will become relevant because the NPC invasions are capable of invading planets successfully. I suppose if you always babysit your colonies through every invasion attempt it's a strict upgrade, otherwise I would argue it has a downside.
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Rody_

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1176 on: April 26, 2021, 12:50:59 PM »

What happens to the EUTC Conquest now that the astral gate questline is gone? To be honest, I really liked the concept and, the idea of having the... 'legacy of EUTC' in my fleet was very interesting too. Is there any chance that you somehow add it back? maybe as an ibb or some short quest reward  ;)
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1177 on: April 26, 2021, 12:55:00 PM »

What happens to the EUTC Conquest now that the astral gate questline is gone? To be honest, I really liked the concept and, the idea of having the... 'legacy of EUTC' in my fleet was very interesting too. Is there any chance that you somehow add it back? maybe as an ibb or some short quest reward  ;)

No, I don't think it will be coming back. I'm glad you enjoyed playing with it, but the effort of updating it for 0.95a and the lore incompatibility means it likely will not be returning. Sorry!
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Ramdat

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1178 on: April 26, 2021, 01:04:10 PM »

No, NPCs cannot build it. My point was that if the player doesn't actively intervene in invasions to make them fail, the ground defense malus will become relevant because the NPC invasions are capable of invading planets successfully. I suppose if you always babysit your colonies through every invasion attempt it's a strict upgrade, otherwise I would argue it has a downside.
I meant that most player colonies can defend themselves without intervention. From what I've seen, by the time the NPCs are mad enough to launch an invasion fleet, the majority of the colonies are developed enough to defend themselves. This is especially true if using a mod like Industrial Evolution. Generally you only have to babysit colonies that have not yet built up the fort/patrol infrastructure. In my previous game I used Penelope's Star as my starting area. It's near the core and has a lot of planets in the system, most of which meet the conditions for the new industry items. After some initial babysitting, the colony was able to entirely defend itself against everything.

On another note, have you considered adding synergy between your stations and planets? For example, something like a space elevator to give a bonus to the planet based on the number of astropolises orbiting it, upkeeped by your Artifacts.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 01:10:09 PM by Ramdat »
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1179 on: April 26, 2021, 01:41:13 PM »

No, NPCs cannot build it. My point was that if the player doesn't actively intervene in invasions to make them fail, the ground defense malus will become relevant because the NPC invasions are capable of invading planets successfully. I suppose if you always babysit your colonies through every invasion attempt it's a strict upgrade, otherwise I would argue it has a downside.
I meant that most player colonies can defend themselves without intervention. From what I've seen, by the time the NPCs are mad enough to launch an invasion fleet, the majority of the colonies are developed enough to defend themselves. This is especially true if using a mod like Industrial Evolution. Generally you only have to babysit colonies that have not yet built up the fort/patrol infrastructure. In my previous game I used Penelope's Star as my starting area. It's near the core and has a lot of planets in the system, most of which meet the conditions for the new industry items. After some initial babysitting, the colony was able to entirely defend itself against everything.

On another note, have you considered adding synergy between your stations and planets? For example, something like a space elevator to give a bonus to the planet based on the number of astropolises orbiting it, upkeeped by your Artifacts.

I guess it depends on which mods you have and the settings you're using. I had games where Nexerelin invasions would be comprised of 10+ different fleets with a bunch of capitals in each, which could easily overwhelm my defenses if I wasn't there. I assume that can still happen in 0.95a.

Stations can build Asteroid Processing, which provides water for desert terraforming in the system. I had the Skyhook space elevator building in previous versions of the mod, but removed it for 0.95a because the Fullerene Spool special item essentially turns your spaceport into a space elevator.
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Ramdat

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1180 on: April 26, 2021, 02:09:56 PM »

I guess it depends on which mods you have and the settings you're using. I had games where Nexerelin invasions would be comprised of 10+ different fleets with a bunch of capitals in each, which could easily overwhelm my defenses if I wasn't there. I assume that can still happen in 0.95a.
It would indeed vary depending on the colony development and other mods. In that game, the system could easily defeat invasions consisting of 10+ fleets.

I had the Skyhook space elevator building in previous versions of the mod, but removed it for 0.95a because the Fullerene Spool special item essentially turns your spaceport into a space elevator.
Yep, I used this mod when you had that mechanic. The Spool is just a standalone accessibility bonus though. I was thinking of a new building with a unique mechanic like the Centralization Bureau or Supercomputer from Industrial Evolution or your CHAMELEON, with synergy between them. The Supercomputer has a good synergy with your Kletka Simulator; the latter produces Cores while the former consumes them to boost income. Or within your own mod, the synergy between the Gene Lab and Dino Park. The Asteroid Processing was a good example too. These types of interactions are interesting. I don't have a good concrete idea for what to add, just the idea of fleshing out your stations due to the terraforming difficulties from the new game version.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 02:11:42 PM by Ramdat »
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tiago_gomestrf

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1181 on: April 26, 2021, 02:51:55 PM »

Thank you boggled for considering implementing the old system again. In the old terraforming the part wich i liked the most was specific options of terraforming because was more "lore friendly" per example if i wanted to "enrich" the planet with minerals/ores i needed to organize a planet cracking, which makes more sence then the new system and way more balanced because its adds +1 for each cracking.
Suggestions for terraforming without using the point system:
-if the player wants to organize a planet cracking, stabilize tectonic activity or set up gravitational manipulation field he needs to build some sort of struture, some text for it could be the .....(struture name) is located underground near of the planet core.For balancing purporses the struture would need a alpha core to function.
-The genelab can be used to clean pollution(already implemented) and if the player has boggled_euteck it could be used to create organics or volatiles, the player needs to use 1 boggled_euteck for +1 organics/volatiles (will need multiple E.U.T.E.C.K. to max these resources). The genelab could also be used to improve farming but for the "late levels"(rich farmland and better) could use a condition system, it needs to have a mild climate(atmosphere processor could be used to create this condition) and cant have poor light(makes use of stellar reflector array).
-For the meteor deflection if possible you could use the planetary shield to counter this condition,if desconstructed the condition "comes back".
-The atmosphere processor could also be used to create an atmosphere.
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Retry

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1182 on: April 26, 2021, 03:12:29 PM »

Quote
When the player actively defends their colonies there is no realistic chance of defeat, but NPC faction planets get invaded successfully on a regular basis if the player doesn't intervene. Maybe there have been changes to Nexerelin in 0.95a that make this less common, but it my past experiences Domed Cities would be a major detriment on certain planets, especially in Hybrasil and Valhalla, which frequently get invaded if there's a war between TT and the Hegemony.
IIRC, the invasion fleet's marine complement directly scales with the target market's defenses, which makes the outcome Nex ground invasions come down to a dice roll (outside of player intervention and fleet actions).  If the space defenses get cleared, any random core world market is about as likely to get conquered from a spawned Invasion as a Legio Infernalis market (which has oodles of defense).

Hegemony Inspections and Vanilla Expeditions don't scale by the target's defenses, but the AI isn't targeted by those anyways.  So it's basically only a nerf if the player, specifically, decides they want to attack an AI Domed City colony.
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boggled

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1183 on: April 26, 2021, 04:05:18 PM »

Thank you boggled for considering implementing the old system again. In the old terraforming the part wich i liked the most was specific options of terraforming because was more "lore friendly" per example if i wanted to "enrich" the planet with minerals/ores i needed to organize a planet cracking, which makes more sence then the new system and way more balanced because its adds +1 for each cracking.
Suggestions for terraforming without using the point system:
-if the player wants to organize a planet cracking, stabilize tectonic activity or set up gravitational manipulation field he needs to build some sort of struture, some text for it could be the .....(struture name) is located underground near of the planet core.For balancing purporses the struture would need a alpha core to function.
-The genelab can be used to clean pollution(already implemented) and if the player has boggled_euteck it could be used to create organics or volatiles, the player needs to use 1 boggled_euteck for +1 organics/volatiles (will need multiple E.U.T.E.C.K. to max these resources). The genelab could also be used to improve farming but for the "late levels"(rich farmland and better) could use a condition system, it needs to have a mild climate(atmosphere processor could be used to create this condition) and cant have poor light(makes use of stellar reflector array).
-For the meteor deflection if possible you could use the planetary shield to counter this condition,if desconstructed the condition "comes back".
-The atmosphere processor could also be used to create an atmosphere.

I will keep these requests in mind when I make changes to the current system. Thanks for your input!

Quote
When the player actively defends their colonies there is no realistic chance of defeat, but NPC faction planets get invaded successfully on a regular basis if the player doesn't intervene. Maybe there have been changes to Nexerelin in 0.95a that make this less common, but it my past experiences Domed Cities would be a major detriment on certain planets, especially in Hybrasil and Valhalla, which frequently get invaded if there's a war between TT and the Hegemony.
IIRC, the invasion fleet's marine complement directly scales with the target market's defenses, which makes the outcome Nex ground invasions come down to a dice roll (outside of player intervention and fleet actions).  If the space defenses get cleared, any random core world market is about as likely to get conquered from a spawned Invasion as a Legio Infernalis market (which has oodles of defense).

Hegemony Inspections and Vanilla Expeditions don't scale by the target's defenses, but the AI isn't targeted by those anyways.  So it's basically only a nerf if the player, specifically, decides they want to attack an AI Domed City colony.

That's good to know. The marine complement can't change once the fleet is launched, right? So if I change it from a constant ground defense malus to only applying if the orbital station is destroyed, this should ensure that invasions will always succeed, even if the invading fleet takes moderate damage from the defenses, since it will have launched with enough marines to invade a planet with 20x more ground defense?
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Farya

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Re: [0.95a] Terraforming and Station Construction (v7.0.0)
« Reply #1184 on: April 27, 2021, 10:20:24 AM »

It seems like Archepelago world from Unknown Skies uses Aquaculture instead of Farming industry now even though it lacks water covered condition like water worlds. Could you please change the way your mod checks whatever the world could be seeded with lobsters or not? Instead of looking for condition check for existing Aquaculture industry or something like that.
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