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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod  (Read 97925 times)

Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #285 on: March 09, 2020, 08:56:52 AM »

Off course, if ocean is deep there would be no 10 km tall tsunami. However, an earthquake-produced wave still remains as a couple meter tall hill-of-water, with a many kilometers-sized basis. It is harmless to a small floating objects, like boats, but a larger scale object, like floating cities or industrial megastructures have a size, comparable with giant wave. That means they will suffer a dynamic deformation, much worse than just "ordinary waves" or "tides". In addition, there are no dry land, so the earthquake-produced wave will round a planet and hit again and again.

I am not agree, that tectonic activity should be removed from a water planets. Modern cruise liners already have a minor deformation problems on a earthquake-produced wave hit, and they are tiny, compared to wave size.
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #286 on: March 09, 2020, 09:38:31 AM »

Again, that seems like part of the "Water-Covered Surface" hazard.
I'm fairly sure waves like that would exist with or without the tectonic activity.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #287 on: March 09, 2020, 10:19:25 AM »




P.S. I am true Photoshop God!
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #288 on: March 09, 2020, 11:18:13 AM »

Why are you so certain that a wave like that can't form without tectonic activity?
There are other things that can disturb the ocean of a water world in that way. Tidal forces, winds, a stray meteor, a derelict Atlas falling from orbit... I don't see why the ocean of a regular water world(without Mild Climate) would be as tranquil as you portray.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #289 on: March 09, 2020, 12:48:13 PM »

Not tranquil, no. It can have an extremely unstable surface. What the difference? Amount of an energy, distributed by waves and amount of a water mass is moved. Those values determine the wave length and amplitude.

Winds, surface explosions, smaller object impacts can do terribly destructive waves, but short length.  Only thin upper layer will be disturbed, no significant mass movement. That type of hazard can obliterate an outer sheathing of a large structures, but nothing more, as the structural deformation areas are small (can not be larger than wavelength if no resonance).

Tectonic activities, underwater explosions and really large meteor impacts are able to move entire depth of an ocean creating wave as long as much allow an energy amount. Structures, that have size, compared to a wavelength will suffer deformation areas up to a wavelength size. No matter what material is used in a structure, an interaction transfer rate of a material is not infinite, so scaling up dynamic deformation areas will sooner or later makes it or crack or bend. First will rip apart a structure, second means it need a flexible joints to repeat current surface shape. Flexible joints will do any production more complicated as there will be no stable horizontal level. Also it is mean a much faster joint deterioration = hight maintenance.

Tidal forces can move entire ocean, but you need a planet-sized structure to feel it.

I am terribly sorry. It is looks like I am not able to translate all amount of explanation into english.
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #290 on: March 09, 2020, 02:13:44 PM »

It's okay, I'm not Anglo myself, so I'm well-equipped to interpret your writing.

That aside... I was just hit with a realization that should've come to me the moment I considered this issue.
Wouldn't the immense depths of a typical water world just crush anything at the bottom into a solid, immovable orb? Could tectonic activity even happen when the lithosphere is being subjected to obscene amounts of pressure from every direction?
I'm not an expert, but that seems unlikely. Even our own little Mariana Trench(11km) is terrifying with how easily it can crush things, so imagine what a world of only water that's 100s of miles deep can do. Even if there were some plate tectonics, I feel like the pressure would be strong enough to keep their effects localized and they would never reach the surface.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 02:19:28 PM by Uhlang »
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tomatopaste

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #291 on: March 09, 2020, 03:09:39 PM »

It's okay, I'm not Anglo myself, so I'm well-equipped to interpret your writing.

That aside... I was just hit with a realization that should've come to me the moment I considered this issue.
Wouldn't the immense depths of a typical water world just crush anything at the bottom into a solid, immovable orb? Could tectonic activity even happen when the lithosphere is being subjected to obscene amounts of pressure from every direction?
I'm not an expert, but that seems unlikely. Even our own little Mariana Trench(11km) is terrifying with how easily it can crush things, so imagine what a world of only water that's 100s of miles deep can do. Even if there were some plate tectonics, I feel like the pressure would be strong enough to keep their effects localized and they would never reach the surface.

What do you think?

This is getting a little off topic, but high water pressure has negligible effect on dampening waves. Instead, it makes it easier to transmit energy.
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Uhlang

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #292 on: March 09, 2020, 03:37:01 PM »

This is getting a little off topic, but high water pressure has negligible effect on dampening waves. Instead, it makes it easier to transmit energy.
But can't the pressure at the bottom of a water world be so great that the plates can barely even budge?
No tectonic movement would mean no tectonic energy created. No tectonic energy created would mean no effect on the waves. Is that wrong?

And I don't see how this is off-topic. We're still discussing whether terraformed water worlds should have the Tectonic Activity hazard.

Wait... Can water worlds spawn with it naturally? That seems like the best way to decide whether it should stay.
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e

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #293 on: March 09, 2020, 04:03:31 PM »

This is getting a little off topic, but high water pressure has negligible effect on dampening waves. Instead, it makes it easier to transmit energy.
But can't the pressure at the bottom of a water world be so great that the plates can barely even budge?
No tectonic movement would mean no tectonic energy created. No tectonic energy created would mean no effect on the waves. Is that wrong?

And I don't see how this is off-topic. We're still discussing whether terraformed water worlds should have the Tectonic Activity hazard.

Wait... Can water worlds spawn with it naturally? That seems like the best way to decide whether it should stay.

I've seen natural water worlds with tectonic activity, can't really prove it right now thought.

Also i don't think tectonics would be the only cause for tidal waves, there are other factors like wind, celestial bodies (moons and whatnot), gravitational conditions, lifeforms scuttling about that ocean, the very movement of the planet orbiting around the system.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #294 on: March 10, 2020, 09:10:52 AM »

Quote
Wouldn't the immense depths of a typical water world just crush anything at the bottom into a solid, immovable orb?

Oh, dude, that is a theoretical mechanic combined with a "sopromat"(unable to translate). Crystalline substances will get more solid only until some point, where pressure start to disturb inner connections between a material's particles (atoms\molecules). That will make them more like a wet clay, than solid. Basically - amorphous transformation. No one ever reach that pressure (equivalent to a 20+ km depth) in a large scale in the lab, so this is no more than theory. But non of that matters, in fact, because any material loose it's properties and gain new ones as you change it size. Have you ever hear about a nanotechnology stuff? Same weird magic if enlarge any common object to a planetary scale. So I doubt if anyone can give you an answer, will this immovable orb be so immovable.

And yes, of course, all of was said is about cool planetary cores, below melting point. Tectonic planets have large chances to be really hot inside, even if surface is frozen, and that means liquid core that will remain liquid and tectonic active. No pressure will make liquids be solid above melting point.
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Kh0rnet

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #295 on: March 10, 2020, 09:41:56 AM »

Will MUD remove Irradiated?
I'd really like some kind of method of testing what it would do to a planet that doesn't take an in-game cycle of waiting...
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #296 on: March 10, 2020, 10:00:03 AM »

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Uhlang

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #297 on: March 10, 2020, 12:42:38 PM »

Well, I think I found my answer, and it's the very anti-climactic "depends on the water world."

A "shallow"(say, 10km) water world might be just as susceptible to tectonic effects as any terrestrial world, but that would change in deeper ones.
Spoiler
[close]
According to this, beyond 632.4 MPa of pressure(which you would get at depths of about 63km,) water would be crushed into a form of ice, ice-VI, that can stay solid above generic water's melting point, and past 2.1 GPa(210km,) it would become ice-VII, which you couldn't even cook back into a liquid form.
So, a sufficiently deep water world would have a thick, regenerating layer of unmelting super-ice around its lithosphere(if it has one,) which I'm pretty sure would prevent any kind of tectonic activity.
Scientific naming aside, this effect is actually acknowledged in canon in Volturn's description:
Quote
Volturn possesses a thick atmosphere over a world-sea which has been seeded with re-engineered Terra-type life forms that have largely displaced the relatively primitive native organisms which once formed vast drifting colonial mats. Beneath the hundreds of kilometers of ocean a core of water-ice over a rocky-metallic core is formed by the immense pressure. Volturn's population lives in a diverse range of floating habitats and subsists largely on farming and processing complex organic compounds.
As well as the generic water world description:
Quote
A primitive atmosphere covers a world-ocean hundreds of kilometers deep. Its waters teem with primitive life and vast algae-analog mats can be seen by instruments from space. A core of water-ice over a rocky mantle is created by the terrific pressure of the sea.

I'm a bit conflicted. If I assume that a water world is shallow, it does make sense for it to be affected by tectonic activity, but that would mean ignoring the generic description, which implies that they're all deep enough to form higher forms of ice and thus subdue the unruly rocks below. But if the hazard can really spawn on water worlds naturally, then I don't even know what to make of this.
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Kh0rnet

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #298 on: March 10, 2020, 12:44:32 PM »



Oof, I feel mega dumb. I explicitly read THAT description in game to check and avoid asking on the forum, and the "radiation" word completely eluded me...
Cheers.
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boggled

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Re: [0.9.1a] Boggled's Terraforming Mod (v4.0.1)
« Reply #299 on: March 10, 2020, 02:24:41 PM »



Oof, I feel mega dumb. I explicitly read THAT description in game to check and avoid asking on the forum, and the "radiation" word completely eluded me...
Cheers.

If you don't want to wait a cycle to see the results, you can use the setting in the settings.csv file that modifies the time it takes to complete terraforming for the MUD. I think setting it to zero should result in immediate terraforming without any bugs.
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