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Author Topic: Yet another economy suggestion (long)  (Read 7181 times)

Megas

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2019, 06:23:50 AM »

By late game we own the largest, most well armed, most dangerous fleet in game. We also can have over half a dozen colonies to our name. By late game we aren't just some no named nobody, we are a minor power.
I would say major power.  After about twenty years, player can have multiple size 8 worlds, more than Hegemony.  Player with max colony skills or plenty of alpha cores can have an empire as least as big as Hegemony or League.

The factions treat the player like a small fry they can push around, but end up bullying a dragon bigger than them.  If it wasn't for pirates, I would destroy all of core worlds to make them stop their endless invasions permanently.  Destroying their capital worlds is easier than destroying three max size expedition fleets without battlestation support.

I still can't figure out what you're even trying to say. You want open legal standard trade to be profitable? That's bad game design, pure and simple.
Is it any different than using only Black Market?  Many players just do it with transponder on and do not care about patrol scans.  Even toggling transponder to avoid suspicion is not too hard.

Open Market can be removed from the game and the only meaningful change is what to do with Commerce industry for your colonies.  Make as well make Open Market a player-only market for colonies with Commerce.
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Erebe

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2019, 07:11:13 AM »

I read the whole posts, an interesting subject, i can say, with good and bad idea, and pretty relevant consern. But, doesn't Alex stop working on the economy system for the time being because he don't know how much time and ressources it would take an that he want to work on others aspects of the game before re-doing the economy, again for the 4th time ?
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AlucardNoirsFolly

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2019, 07:43:02 AM »

I still can't figure out what you're even trying to say. You want open legal standard trade to be profitable? That's bad game design, pure and simple.

My point is that the Open market needs to either be made functional or removed. That's my point. There is literally no reason to have the open market, or to be able to buy civil hull freighters if we can't do profitable legal trade. Either the open markets are made actually usable, in a manner like the one I have described or Alex just removes them from the game.

Currently you see there is trade, you see there are civilian hull freighters, you can acquire said freighters, you can make a trade fleet indistinguishable from an AI controlled fleet and you see that prices react to you buying and selling on the open market. The only reason you can't meaningfully and legally interact with a system that is already in game is because of the tariffs. Alex spend a lot of time on making this system and when he realized it could be easily abused and that the abuse would turn the the game into a grindy and not at all fun slog he gimped the system via tariffs.

Alex spend a lot of time making a trade system reminiscent of the one in games like the Escape Velocity series and it's clones. One far more complex than EV Nova's. Then he realized it could be made unenjoyable and made it so the player is disincentivized from using it. As long as the system stays in the game there will be people like me complaining about the tariffs because we see what the system actually is and how it's being artificially gimped. Keeping the system in game whilst artificially gimping it is what's bad game design. Not removing the system if he can't find a way to make it fun is bad game design. Even just removing the tariffs is better game design then the present system. Especially since every time this problem is brought up people keep bringing up the bloody black market as if that's anything more than a substitution.

I'm sorry, but it's not that hard to grasp. Starsector has a working trade economy the player was meant to interact with. That economy was then artificially crippled so as to stop the player from interacting with it. The player isn't dumb, he sees the economy is there and asks himself the obvious question: why can't I make a profit trading? All the elements are there, so why not? the answer: because Alex doesn't want you to. A meta answer is not an answer, that's just bad game design. Alex needs to either find a way to make legal trading fun and hard to exploit or he needs to remove the very idea from the game.

IT's just a simple Chekhov's gun scenario. The players sees the trade economy, the player wants to participate in it, the player realizes he's now allowed to. The player finds out why - because the dev nerfed it to uselessness, the player complains about it. Remove it from the game and you remove the loaded gun from your first act.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 07:44:40 AM by AlucardNoirsFolly »
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bobucles

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2019, 08:47:26 AM »

Quote
My point is that the Open market needs to either be made functional or removed
But the open market is functional. You can buy items, and sell items, and there are valid tradeoffs between open market trade vs. black market trade. You may not like the particular list of pros/cons but they are there.

The open market however is not profitable and that is perfectly okay. The game is under no obligation to provide unlimited safe trade, and it wouldn't be very fun anyway. Several sources of trade profit still exist, from space missions to bar missions to black markets and illegal goods. They make money, you can successfully grow from them, and the risks are manageable. The only real complaint about it is "it's not legal waaah". Yeah? So what? It's not a space capitalism game, it's a spaceships-blowing-up-spaceships game. Solve your trade disputes by blowing something up.

Don't go rejecting what is already there, and claim that nothing exists.

Q8

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2019, 09:40:23 AM »

I still can't figure out what you're even trying to say. You want open legal standard trade to be profitable? That's bad game design, pure and simple.
Ofc you dont. Even he himself doesnt know what he is talking about...
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AlucardNoirsFolly

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2019, 09:51:17 AM »

I still can't figure out what you're even trying to say. You want open legal standard trade to be profitable? That's bad game design, pure and simple.
Ofc you dont. Even he himself doesnt know what he is talking about...

I want one of two tings:
1. either for the open market to be removed in favor of the exclusive use of the military and black markets or
2. for the open market to allow profitable trade - and I have left several suggestions to that effect in my OP.
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Goumindong

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2019, 10:41:49 AM »

I still can't figure out what you're even trying to say. You want open legal standard trade to be profitable? That's bad game design, pure and simple.
Ofc you dont. Even he himself doesnt know what he is talking about...

I want one of two tings:
1. either for the open market to be removed in favor of the exclusive use of the military and black markets or
2. for the open market to allow profitable trade - and I have left several suggestions to that effect in my OP.

Why?  Without the open market any trade would force reputation loss and/or require you to stealth in to every port you wanted to meaninfully interact with. It would significantly hamper the ability of players to interact with the core gameplay cycle of combat and exploration.

If the open market allows profitable trade(and lets be clear profitable trade already exists even with the tariffs) at stable point then there exists a perverse incentive to not interact with the core gameplay cycle

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Megas

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2019, 10:49:49 AM »

Thinking about Open Market, I trade there for...
1) Buying early-game hullmods (like Efficiency Overhaul)
2) Buying provisions (like supplies and fuel) I need now, and I cannot get them (or enough) at Black Market
3) Selling blueprints (because I do not want to upgrade pirates' fleets by selling them at Black Market)
4) Selling nanoforge (at industry world, so I can steal it back along with blueprints)

I sell most loot at Black Market, and buy most from either Black Market or Colony Resources.
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Goumindong

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2019, 11:03:03 AM »

I also buy on the open market when i am hauling around AI cores or other illegal goods which don't make sense for me to offload right there so as not to produce a scan that might get them confiscated.

And to intentionally increase reputation
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2019, 11:25:51 AM »

I m always sellin items and buing supplies and fuel on the open market. And the only things i v ever bought on the black market were ships. Cause sometimes it is possible to find something good there.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2019, 12:03:19 PM »

I want one of two tings:
1. either for the open market to be removed in favor of the exclusive use of the military and black markets or
2. for the open market to allow profitable trade - and I have left several suggestions to that effect in my OP.

So you want to either remove a perfectly functional part of the game or put in a piece of bad design that's already been explicitly rejected for good reason. Gotcha.

I'm assuming you mean standard open market trade here, because if you are genuinely insisting you can't make a profit trading on the open market, you are, quite simply, factually wrong. You simply need to exploit shortages and excesses to do it (assuming you want both sides of the transaction to happen on the open market - selling goods acquired elsewhere is even more profitable obviously). Which is the whole point of the tariffs.
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Megas

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2019, 12:28:50 PM »

I also buy on the open market when i am hauling around AI cores or other illegal goods which don't make sense for me to offload right there so as not to produce a scan that might get them confiscated.
Makes sense.  I have done that before too.
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AlucardNoirsFolly

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2019, 12:51:34 AM »

You know what? I give up. It's pointless trying to debate people that refuse to understand something as simple as Chekhov's gun. It's utterly meaningless to have a dialogue with most of you when you don't have arguments that can't be refuted, you only have talking point you keep regurgitating indifferent of how many times they are refuted. It's sad to see the community around the game be so dogmatic, but if that's how it is, then that's how it is.
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Q8

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2019, 02:35:18 AM »

Ouh, its so good u wrote that, because now i can be an SOB back at you, and nobody will hold that against me.

I still can't figure out what you're even trying to say. You want open legal standard trade to be profitable? That's bad game design, pure and simple.
Ofc you dont. Even he himself doesnt know what he is talking about...

I want one of two tings:
1. either for the open market to be removed in favor of the exclusive use of the military and black markets or
2. for the open market to allow profitable trade - and I have left several suggestions to that effect in my OP.
No, you didnt. Your suggestions are all garbage. This is not how u suggest changes to the working systems. You have to realize, that what ure asking for, is not a point blank change to an item of code, like nerf a gun, or make a ship faster, or make AI consider turning on the shields when an opponent is in [range + blink range] if the opponent can blink. Those changes would be such, that you wouldnt need opposable thumbs to implement them. That means, that the idea is more important than the implementation. You on the other hand, are trying to make a change to the system itself. This is not the same thing. You cant just write... (quoted from the top post):
1. Situation a: a planets supply of a good equals it's demand - universal tariff for both buying and selling on the open market of 5%

2. Situation b: a planet has higher supply of a certain good then demand: - if the player buys on that market there is no tariff
                                                                                                                          - if the player sells on that market there is a 10% tariff for every 100/200 units that planet has a surplus of

3. Situation c: a planet has a higher demand for a good then it produces locally: - if the player buys on that market he gets a 10% tariff on his transactions for every 100/200 units the planet has a deficit of
                                                                                                                                     - if the players sells on that planet there is no tariff
...and think to yourslef "ka-ching! jobes done!"
This, what you are doing, is basically the same as me coming to you and telling u to paint me The Lady Of Shalott, but blond. What do you think? can u do that for me? Youve seen the picture, didnt you?
...Ofc you cant. Because the idea is not important. The implementation is.

Im gonna give you one more example. How to write a proper suggestion.

Here we go. Lets say, i dont like how the prices work. So i think to myself, that in reality, supply and demand are not really the main thing that goes into the price, value of the currency is. So, my idea would be, to make a different currency for every planet, based on import/export value. That would create a system, that is deep enough for an average player, not to see the bottom(witch would help him keep the immersion running), but shallow enough for the coder, not to grow old while programming the system.
What i suggest is:
1.Create a constant value for the main currency (credits), something like primo$ = 1 = const;
2.Create base values of goods in primo$'s, like 1fuel = 25primo$ (this point is already in the game, i write it only to be clear)
3.Create a new variable for every colony, that will represent the planets currency price, something like planetA$ = primo$;
4.Create a loop (month long for example) with planetA$ = planetA$ * V  where V = export(planetA)/import(planetA). That wouldnt be too hard to code, since import and export values are already in the game.
5.Multiply all the prices by planetA$ value.
and 6.Play around with V. Cap it abit maybe, smooth it alittle, etc.
All that would, in few easy steps, add abit of life into the existing system(that is at this moment really easy to seethrou, ergo, boring and immersionbreaking)

Okay, i think i made my point.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 02:41:48 AM by Q8 »
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AlucardNoirsFolly

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Re: Yet another economy suggestion (long)
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2019, 06:29:34 AM »

Ouh, its so good u wrote that, because now i can be an SOB back at you, and nobody will hold that against me.

I still can't figure out what you're even trying to say. You want open legal standard trade to be profitable? That's bad game design, pure and simple.
Ofc you dont. Even he himself doesnt know what he is talking about...

I want one of two tings:
1. either for the open market to be removed in favor of the exclusive use of the military and black markets or
2. for the open market to allow profitable trade - and I have left several suggestions to that effect in my OP.
No, you didnt. Your suggestions are all garbage. This is not how u suggest changes to the working systems. You have to realize, that what ure asking for, is not a point blank change to an item of code, like nerf a gun, or make a ship faster, or make AI consider turning on the shields when an opponent is in [range + blink range] if the opponent can blink. Those changes would be such, that you wouldnt need opposable thumbs to implement them. That means, that the idea is more important than the implementation. You on the other hand, are trying to make a change to the system itself. This is not the same thing. You cant just write... (quoted from the top post):
1. Situation a: a planets supply of a good equals it's demand - universal tariff for both buying and selling on the open market of 5%

2. Situation b: a planet has higher supply of a certain good then demand: - if the player buys on that market there is no tariff
                                                                                                                          - if the player sells on that market there is a 10% tariff for every 100/200 units that planet has a surplus of

3. Situation c: a planet has a higher demand for a good then it produces locally: - if the player buys on that market he gets a 10% tariff on his transactions for every 100/200 units the planet has a deficit of
                                                                                                                                     - if the players sells on that planet there is no tariff
...and think to yourslef "ka-ching! jobes done!"
This, what you are doing, is basically the same as me coming to you and telling u to paint me The Lady Of Shalott, but blond. What do you think? can u do that for me? Youve seen the picture, didnt you?
...Ofc you cant. Because the idea is not important. The implementation is.

Im gonna give you one more example. How to write a proper suggestion.

Here we go. Lets say, i dont like how the prices work. So i think to myself, that in reality, supply and demand are not really the main thing that goes into the price, value of the currency is. So, my idea would be, to make a different currency for every planet, based on import/export value. That would create a system, that is deep enough for an average player, not to see the bottom(witch would help him keep the immersion running), but shallow enough for the coder, not to grow old while programming the system.
What i suggest is:
1.Create a constant value for the main currency (credits), something like primo$ = 1 = const;
2.Create base values of goods in primo$'s, like 1fuel = 25primo$ (this point is already in the game, i write it only to be clear)
3.Create a new variable for every colony, that will represent the planets currency price, something like planetA$ = primo$;
4.Create a loop (month long for example) with planetA$ = planetA$ * V  where V = export(planetA)/import(planetA). That wouldnt be too hard to code, since import and export values are already in the game.
5.Multiply all the prices by planetA$ value.
and 6.Play around with V. Cap it abit maybe, smooth it alittle, etc.
All that would, in few easy steps, add abit of life into the existing system(that is at this moment really easy to seethrou, ergo, boring and immersionbreaking)

Okay, i think i made my point.

Just for you I'm making an exception and making just one more comment. You learned all that since you wrote this a month ago?
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