Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5

Author Topic: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups  (Read 5854 times)

Serenitis

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1193
    • View Profile
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2019, 11:21:33 AM »

Is there a concrete reason there is only 5 groups? Or is this Starsector's "640k should be enough for everybody" moment?
Logged

bobucles

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
    • View Profile
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2019, 02:37:47 PM »

This can be fixed by COLLAPSING the weapon groups. Basically, only show the weapon data and ammo of the currently active weapon group. This way you can fit a lot more weapon groups without any extra space, and you improve the UI clutter issue by removing the display of unnecessary data
Okay, so we're going to add weapon groups, so that we can stop displaying weapon groups, so that we can avoid making a mess from there being too many weapon groups. Sounds good. No, wait, it sounds like the other thing. Bad.

I don't think a single person in this thread has expressed an interest in manually targeting and shooting more than a few selections of weapons. That's the main purpose of weapon groups, if you aren't grouping them to shoot them, then why do you need more groups?  No one activates broadside group 4c because they have more fun firing a flak broadside instead of beam broadside. They want control of it because the ship has too many weapons, the flux is overloading and something needs to shut down before the autofire kills your ship.

Adding dozens of weapon groups is a micro solution to a macro problem. Individual weapon control is the micro solution, where players look for the least important weapons in their current situation to turn offline. The macro problem is with managing the flux budget of the player ship. Flux management concerns the entire ship and is directly linked to weapon control. There may need to be a complex set of underlying rules but the intents of the flux budget are clear. Players want options to push their ship limits, squeezing every last ounce of flux to force a kill. They want options to be efficient, trying to get the best flux efficiency in a situation. They want options to be defensive, keeping flux low and prioritizing point defense. Finally they may want to hold fire all together, to force the zero flux speed bonus. Those are all viable ship stances to have, and you don't need to twiddle with a dozen weapon groups to make them happen.

DatonKallandor

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2019, 04:43:22 AM »

Is there a concrete reason there is only 5 groups? Or is this Starsector's "640k should be enough for everybody" moment?

Increasing weapon group amount is not the answer to the problem. 5 Groups is more than enough for everybody. Making the autofiring weapons smarter is the answer to the problem.

Giving the player more control over their behaviour pre-battle is frankly, another bandaid, but considering how hard it is to make AI that works in every situation might be what's needed in the interim.
Logged

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3447
    • View Profile
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2019, 05:33:41 AM »

5 groups is not enough for bigger ships. For example, on Onslaught you'd want 1 groups for TPCs (2 for AI), 1-2 for larges, 2-3 for mediums, 1 for PD and 0-1 for smalls, giving you the range of 5 to 9 weapon groups you would want. At this point, I am not shooting any of those weapons or weapons groups — the thing I'm controlling is which groups are firing in the first place.
I doubt autofire could discern whether, say, a Mjolnir is there for high damage per shot, or for EMP, or for energy damage utility. Same weapons can be used for different purposes in different loadouts. I know that ship AI knows how much flux per second does a weapon group use, though I don't know if it knows its overall efficiency.

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2620
    • View Profile
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2019, 06:01:50 AM »

I know that ship AI knows how much flux per second does a weapon group use, though I don't know if it knows its overall efficiency.

Hard to say how it prioritizes. Gauss + Railguns AI ship will prefer Gauss to Railguns despite both lower efficiency and higher cost to fire (both in range, enemy is shielded).
It will manually fire Gauss, while disabling Railguns autofire (as soon as flux builds up). So manual firing mode may be additional complication here.
Logged

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1277
    • View Profile
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2019, 05:25:16 AM »

No, 5 groups is not more than enough. You can easily have 6 different weapon types on a cap ship or an Apogee.

The problem is two-fold:
- AI does not handle different weapons in a single group as well as it could. AI switches groups, decides to fire and turns autofire on/off at an almost human speed, which to my mind is simply not fast enough. Let the AI react at machine speed. Autofire control in particular is very slow.
- Players have this to shoehorn different weapon types into single groups and then are required to use autofire. This is a limitation. Why assume we're always going to want to limit ourselves just so the problematic weapon group limit is less problematic?

Just add more groups. Hell, make 5 the default and just put '+' and '-' icons there so the player can add as many as he wants and kill those he doesn't need.
Logged

DatonKallandor

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2019, 01:48:04 PM »

Why assume we're always going to want to limit ourselves just so the problematic weapon group limit is less problematic?

Just add more groups. Hell, make 5 the default and just put '+' and '-' icons there so the player can add as many as he wants and kill those he doesn't need.
The reason that's a bad idea is because not fixing the underlying autofire issues and instead just slapping more weapon groups on it just creates huge gaps between players know how to game the weapon grouping system and the ones that don't as well as the AI and the players. Both of these are obviously bad.
Logged

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2620
    • View Profile
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2019, 10:06:33 PM »

Why assume we're always going to want to limit ourselves just so the problematic weapon group limit is less problematic?

Just add more groups. Hell, make 5 the default and just put '+' and '-' icons there so the player can add as many as he wants and kill those he doesn't need.
The reason that's a bad idea is because not fixing the underlying autofire issues and instead just slapping more weapon groups on it just creates huge gaps between players know how to game the weapon grouping system and the ones that don't as well as the AI and the players. Both of these are obviously bad.

Both easy to solve. Player can 'git gud', automatic group generation can be improved to avoid bad groups (different range or non-overlapping arcs on non-PD, non-missile weapons. And preferably divide by damage type too).
Logged

bobucles

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
    • View Profile
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2019, 04:02:28 AM »

Quote
Player can 'git gud'
Demanding  weapon grouping chores from the player is not a particularly fun idea.

Plantissue

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2019, 05:47:49 AM »

What's up with people here recently telling other people to "git good" or implying they are bad players. It's nasty and doesn't help anybody.
Logged

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1457
    • View Profile
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2019, 06:10:00 AM »

What's up with people here recently telling other people to "git good" or implying they are bad players. It's nasty and doesn't help anybody.
Well boys, we did it. Cyberbullying is no more.
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

Plantissue

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2019, 09:26:52 AM »

Or you know, you can speak up against it instead of supporting it? Give advice instead of insulting someone?
Logged

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1457
    • View Profile
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2019, 10:04:15 AM »

Or you know, you can speak up against it instead of supporting it? Give advice instead of insulting someone?
Ok I get that ''git gud'' became a meme and people just ignore that, but it's a legit thing to say when someone already has enough information about the game, and the only thing that's left is to get better. There's only so much advice that can be given. Like what the hell should you say when someone is stuck in a bullet hell or a hack and slash game? Cheat the game? Tweak the game's files? People are so used to easy games that when they actually play something that requires skill, they immediately go complain ''bad game design hurr durr''. Also if you consider git gud a personal insult you probably shouldn't spend free time on the internet.

Now in case someone gets mad this is too off topic, I'm also in favor of having more weapons groups. Personally I've never needed more than 6-7 but might as well have the option for those crazy mod ships or something.
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

Plantissue

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2019, 07:59:30 AM »

If some players are imaginative and skilled enough to want to use 6 control groups, there is nothing to "git gud" from. We are all playing under the limitiation of 5 weapon groups; it is only those who more capable than you that want to use more.
Logged

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3447
    • View Profile
Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2019, 08:29:24 AM »

Because of AI handles weapon groups, it could get better with that change, too, since it would have a more granular choice. An example is the Onslaught and its TPCs. There's a difference between putting both of them in one group, and in two separate groups. Though, admittedly, in this particular example it might be an issue with autofire AI...
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5