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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts (09/24/21)

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Author Topic: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups  (Read 1991 times)

Arcagnello

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2020, 03:02:33 AM »

I'm also heavily in favour of making AI weapon cycling INSTANT. There is a reason why I actually give most of my AI ships only two weapon groups (yes, even the ones with hardpoints&turrets) most of the time to make sure they always fire all their offensive weapons on (mostly) the same target and that the entirety of their PD batteries open up all at once.

Then there's also the issue of the AI not istantly switching target the moment the current one is obstructed. This is clearly visible when fighting a rotating enemy such as a battlestation, when a ship keeps aiming at a support mobule for many, many seconds while the battlestation has already rotated it out of sight.

This is a bit of a side note Alex, but you should consider modifying the AI behaviour even further if the ship does not have a shield. I am really pleased to see that the "shield-less AI" will keep a distance from enemies as to avoid damage in their demise, but it would also be really appreciated for the AI to not retreat as much as a "shielded AI" when its flux gets high, mostly because it can't overload and because ships without a shield usually carry more guns, meaning that the more it fires them the more it's going to be effective!
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 03:04:06 AM by Arcagnello »
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Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.
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Deshara

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2020, 08:32:34 AM »

Argh, I might as well just add more groups! That UI would benefit from an overhaul, anyway.

https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/1323015744364388353

To clarify: it's the UI work, yeah (I'd say 75% of the work, because the old one totally breaks down if you add more groups, things just don't fit anymore), but also the number "5" being hardcoded for max weapon groups in an embarrassingly large number of places. I've done my best to scour through the codebase and change it (to 7, sigh), but if anything slipped through, you should probably blame Gothars.

(Edit: before anyone calls it out, I fixed the autofire checkboxes alignment issue :))

blegh, I kind of hate this move. HOTS just did the same thing recently when it added an ability to the game and bound it to the 6 key by default -- what I refer to as "binding to the doorknob". I put up with it in ARMA bc thats the game's basic draw, it being obnoxious, but the fact that SS only used the number keys that were convenient to reach was always a big plus to me in terms of the quality factor
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2020, 08:55:59 AM »

You don't need to use the new weapon groups, and you can also make sure any weapons there are on auto fire. I don't see how this changes anything from the current game unless you want it to.
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Deshara

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2020, 09:01:16 AM »

You don't need to use the new weapon groups, and you can also make sure any weapons there are on auto fire. I don't see how this changes anything from the current game unless you want it to.

taking control of AI ships, tho I guess that'd really just reinforce the feeling of jumping into the drivers seat of someone else's car. Like, okay I know we're in the middle of battle but hold up I gotta adjust the mirrors & steering column
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Grievous69

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2020, 09:10:20 AM »

But aren't PD weapons pretty much always in the last groups? Even if you didn't make the variant yourself, I don't think there'd be a manual fire strong weapon on group 6 or 7.
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Deshara

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2020, 09:16:53 AM »

arent they? I remember being annoyed by jumping from my kite flagship into my onslaught wingman and being irritated at having its PD mixed in with its large slots, but that might be an old memory & a fixed issue. Honestly I'd prefer having a second row of weapon groups marked as "support weapons" (with the main group being "primary weapons") & you flip between the two by double-tapping a number, so you get twice as many weapon groups with the same number of keys and the ones on the new extension are explicitly in-game established as not being meant to be as easily used as the ones we already have, while still being far more convenient than having them bound to the door-knob -- I replayed Doom 2 recently & the guns that are bound to the same key like the different shotguns you cycle thru with the 3 key I used way more than I did the guns bound to the doorknob like the BFG bound to 7
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2020, 09:22:29 AM »

If you don't either set up weapon groups, or press the auto-weapon group button, things can get really messed up (every weapon on one group type of stuff), maybe that's what you remember? But that wouldn't be made worse by the addition of extra weapon groups. I just manually set up weapon groups to my liking on every ship. I almost never manual fire more than 3 groups so those are the first few groups and everything else is on auto fire. I don't think I've ever pressed 5 in this game lol, I can't see myself pressing 6 or 7 either.
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Alex

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2020, 03:56:13 PM »

Please don't make AI weapon switching slower. If anything, I think it should be as instant as possible. The player gets pause mode to do all his switching if he cares to optimize. When I watch AI in the simulator, I see plenty of time wasted with switching weapon groups and leaving weapon groups off when they should not be. The problem has never been that AI shoots too much, if you know what I mean. ;)

Gothars, where do you see the AI doing this instantaneously? When I watch it, it's always pretty much human-level slow especially with turning groups on again after they were turned off.

(I was talking about exclusively making AI switching *faster*; apologies that this wasn't clear.)
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Megas

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Re: Finer weapon control without needing more weapon groups
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2020, 04:08:04 PM »

I don't think I've ever pressed 5 in this game lol, I can't see myself pressing 6 or 7 either.
In my case, I press '5' to de-select all weapon groups, except Apogee and Onslaught that use all five, and I cannot press '6' to de-select all groups.

With seven groups, I will probably have use six for weapons on Onslaught (1 for left TPC, 2 for right TPC, 3 for missiles, 4 and/or 5 for non-PD, and 6 for flak.  7 will be empty group to de-select six groups when I want no group manually selected.
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