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Author Topic: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups  (Read 6153 times)

goduranus

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Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« on: October 14, 2019, 07:10:25 PM »

Sometimes 5 weapons groups is not enough for bigger capital ship, would be great if a tech or combat skill allows more weapon groups to be added, or for a hullmod, built into Integrated Targeting System.

Thaago

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2019, 07:51:14 PM »

+1

We were just having a discussion in the onslaught thread and my current build, ideally, wants 7 groups in order for the AI to correctly control its weapons. I'm getting by with 5 by having the TPCs in the same group (bad) and linking salamanders to a gauss cannon, both to get them to fire correctly and for the flux calculation.
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TaLaR

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2019, 09:12:30 PM »

I agree with needing more weapon groups, but why bind it to skills/hullmods? It's basic usability stuff.
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Megas

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2019, 04:47:35 AM »

Five groups are not enough.  There should be more groups, and it should not be locked behind skills as it is a UI issue.
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Grievous69

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2019, 05:02:15 AM »

Well if it affects gameplay for some people (as we can clearly see), then it's more than just a UI issue.
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bobucles

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2019, 07:28:28 AM »

How many weapon groups does a player really need? I make ample use of 3:
- Manual fire (primary)
- Hold fire (missiles)
- Everything else on auto fire.
Is there any particular benefit to having more?

TaLaR

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2019, 07:45:25 AM »

How many weapon groups does a player really need? I make ample use of 3:
- Manual fire (primary)
- Hold fire (missiles)
- Everything else on auto fire.
Is there any particular benefit to having more?

Take Onslaught (7+ groups):
- 1 & 2 for separate TPCs (in same group they'll miss a lot against anything smaller than a capital under AI control, though it may be more convenient to keep single group for player)
- 3 for missiles (typically Annihilators)
- 4 for frontal Kinetics (if Needlers, the must be alternating as well, to be able to fire when low on flux. May need 2 groups if it's Gauss + something else, due to different range)
- 5 for frontal HE guns (HE and Kinetics separation, also likely different range, needed to manage them properly both for player and AI)
- 6 for rear-facing anti-frigate non-pd guns (if any).
- 7 for PD (it needs to be separate from everything else for proper flux management, both for player and AI). I'd add extra group for Devastators, if any, since they are too flux-expensive and may potentially lead to AI disabling whole PD group.

Aside from PD you should avoid different range weapons in same group. If AI chooses to manually fire it, shorter range weapon will waste flux at long range. AI can't figure out that some groups simply can't be manually fired efficiently.

Similar problem with non-PD guns with non-overlapping arcs, if AI decides to manually control them (which can't be prevented) one side is wasted.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 07:53:37 AM by TaLaR »
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Plantissue

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2019, 08:12:46 AM »

I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to have 10 control groups, with the ability to have the same weapons being in different control groups. I also see no reason why this should be tied to a skill or hullmod.
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TaLaR

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2019, 08:17:15 AM »

with the ability to have the same weapons being in different control groups

Can be convenient for player in some cases (most of which are covered by in-combat switching between linked and alternating fire mode, there is a mod for it), but would likely confuse AI.
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SlaveToArmok

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2019, 08:26:25 AM »

I think that doing this via a skill is not that practical in that it would presumably require the commanding officer to have that skill, wich wouldn't really make sense. What if you pull the officer of the ship? Do the Weapon Groups revert to auto? This is obviously not ideal.

What the skill could do would be the ability to use multiple "manual" groups at once. Sometimes I see the AI disabling the autofire on some groups, e.g. the forward facing slots on a Paragon, and then it won't use them at all, even if enemies run into the firing arc.
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Megas

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2019, 08:32:21 AM »

Take Onslaught (7+ groups):
- 1 & 2 for separate TPCs (in same group they'll miss a lot against anything smaller than a capital under AI control, though it may be more convenient to keep single group for player)
- 3 for missiles (typically Annihilators)
- 4 for frontal Kinetics (if Needlers, the must be alternating as well, to be able to fire when low on flux. May need 2 groups if it's Gauss + something else, due to different range)
- 5 for frontal HE guns (HE and Kinetics separation, also likely different range, needed to manage them properly both for player and AI)
- 6 for rear-facing anti-frigate non-pd guns (if any).
- 7 for PD (it needs to be separate from everything else for proper flux management, both for player and AI). I'd add extra group for Devastators, if any, since they are too flux-expensive and may potentially lead to AI disabling whole PD group.
Do not forget another, 8, empty in case player is piloting it but wants AI to control all weapons, 1-7 in this case.

Probably should have 8 groups, with 9 being no group selected (for full AI control of all groups when player pilots his ship).  Could be 9 groups plus zero for full AI control.

It is annoying when I have that fifth group filled, yet I want it empty because I like being able to let AI control all weapons while I pilot a ship.
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TaLaR

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2019, 08:36:53 AM »

@Megas
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13431.0 - mod to that adds 'no group' selection and in-combat fire mode switch.
Though I see no reason, why this shouldn't be part of base game.
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Megas

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2019, 08:37:47 AM »

Something like that should be in the base game and not in a mod.
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bobucles

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2019, 09:22:34 AM »

There's still something I'm not getting here. Does a weapon NEED to have its own weapon group to have independent tracking? Because as it stands, there's little reason you'd ever need precise control over your "fire at will" turret mounts. If anything, an excessive amount of turret groupings will only clutter the interface and get in the way of more essential high level decisions.

TaLaR

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Re: Gunnery Implant - gives additional weapons groups
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2019, 09:28:57 AM »

There's still something I'm not getting here. Does a weapon NEED to have its own weapon group to have independent tracking? Because as it stands, there's little reason you'd ever need precise control over your "fire at will" turret mounts. If anything, an excessive amount of turret groupings will only clutter the interface and get in the way of more essential high level decisions.

- AI needs weapons separate to manage flux properly rather than just disabling everything (disable low efficiency guns first, etc, leave PD for last - I'm not saying AI doesn't have problems with how it manages groups, but without groups it can't even try).
- AI sometimes takes manual control of weapons, during which they can't attack different targets, obviously. This manual control is very harmful behavior if you just dump all capital's guns into one group, and even properly setting all 5 groups may be not always enough as demonstrated by Onslaught breakdown.
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