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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits  (Read 13286 times)

TrashMan

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Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« on: October 11, 2019, 01:36:31 AM »

The biggest problem with smaller ships is they are meant to be used in wolf pack tactics.
But due to fleet limit being a number of ship, not point, it is a terrible strategy.

The other problem is how the battles are fought. Small ships excel at flaking, but due to the size of the battlefield and number of ship deployed, this many not work well.

Increasing the size of the battlefield may have both performance and practical issues (slow ships take forever to get anywhere).
But would it be possible to make it work..with something like a dynamic battlefield - as in, there is no fixed size, no "borders".

But how would ships retreat then?
By using distance from the center of action (or control points, or flagship) and the enemy. If you move a certain distance away, with no enemies in the direction you are moving, you can escape.

But what about big, slow ships? They can't outrun frigates.
Perhaps the solution would be an escape drive. Something that can be charged (for a minute or so) and woks as a constant burn drive?

There are just random ideas, but I want to hear what people think. How to make small ships viable and useful?
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TaLaR

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2019, 02:02:12 AM »

Primary reason for small ships being nonviable are officer and fleet size limits.
AI as close second - smaller ships just need to be smarter about using speed advantage to defeat otherwise superior stat bricks.
With CR as last point - every second a frigate is not killing something, it's losing by CR.
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TrashMan

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2019, 02:13:25 AM »

Forgot to mention something - the map sizes and engagement ranges make the "border hugging" tactic extremely exploitable. not only does it render the AI impotent and prevents encircelment in a very cheap way, but there's one thing more to consider - the enemy cannot effectively bring it's numbers to bear against you. Simply put, the ships get in each others way and can't get into range, which is why carriers are so effective.
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2019, 02:49:07 AM »

Downsides of using small ships:
- Fleet limit
- AI ***, so, they will die time to time. And some people (like me...) dont want to bother refilling the fleet
- Without missiles, all, they can do: strip opponent's flux to let bigger brothers do their job
- You dont have enough officers for each ship
- You can expect little ships to work as great scouts, but it doesnt work well enough. In battle they have greater speed, yeah. But you need to order them to scout. Outside the battle it is way worse: smaller ships have way smaller sensor range and almost the same speed (like 20 burn vs capital fleet, having 18)
- Some hull mods have lesser values. Yes, they also have lesser cost, but it is proportional (+/-) to ship's lesser number of OPs. Yes, it looks right, because small ship has way less deployment cost, than a capital, so, you can imagine the situation where your 8 wolves destroy one Onslaught. But in reality such situations never occur.

Upsides:
- Low cost
- Low maintenance cost
- Pretty good speed, so you can easily pursue those pesky frigates, when enemy's cruisers and capitals are killed and Benny Hill starts

Just for me, Upsides < Downsides. And about new skill system's influence on frigates: looks too artificial. You can boost light ships more and more, and some day i ll ask myself: "Hey, why use destroyers, if i can use frigates instead for lower cost?"

I wanna mention some games with the same "weight" problem:
Stellaris. You can build corvette fleet, and it will do well, if enemy has no splash damage. So, no problem here. It is all about proportions (of effectiveness and cost).

Homeworld. Cant remember the costs, but there were simple system: Capitals > Cruisers > Destroyers > Interceptors > Bombers > Capitals and cruisers. Think about that.

World of tanks. Because of armor system it was pretty hard for light tanks to deal damage to big armored targets. But light tanks have their own role: great sensors (in terms of Starsector) and great movement capabilities.

Mechwarrior online. Game looks pretty similar to starsector: mech has its own tonnage, which limits its abilities to mount weapons and armor (and heat capacitors, yeah) and also works as deployment cost. The session is a battle 12 vs 12. But the difference: no energy shield (so, no regenerating HP) and armor works just like additional HP, but when it is depleted, the mech can lose some components installed into damaged location. The system is good, because even the smallest mech can deal damage to the biggest one. Can remember one game when matchmaker malfunctioned and we got a battle with mainly heavy one side vs mainly light enemies. And heavies got outplayed. Was awesome.

Ofc, Starsector must not be the same as any of those games. Shield and armor mechanics here are its own features, and i, personally, wanna see them to stay as they are, without any changes. All i wanna say: small units need their own role. They must be the best for it, so it will be an attractive choice to use em.
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Plantissue

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2019, 04:15:07 AM »

The biggest problem with smaller ships is they are meant to be used in wolf pack tactics.
This assumption is already wrong.

What is a "wolf pack tactics", and who is to say that is how they are meant to be used? If you choose an accelerated start for instance, you already start off with Destroyers/Cruisers, completely taking away any intention to deploy a fleet of frigates.


_______________


you can imagine the situation where your 8 wolves destroy one Onslaught. But in reality such situations never occur.
They can if such a situation occurs. All it takes is high damage weapons like missiles and Heavy Blaster, or even ion weapons to speed it up once the find the rear and against an alone Onslaught they can. Unless what you meant is that Onslaughts never appear alone and a fleet with one will greatly out deployment point a fleet of wolves.

Upsides:
- Low maintenance cost
Compared to what? Singly, they have low maintenance cost. In terms of combat effectiveness, they have high maintenance cost


And about new skill system's influence on frigates: looks too artificial. You can boost light ships more and more, and some day i ll ask myself: "Hey, why use destroyers, if i can use frigates instead for lower cost?"
I somewhat agree. As it is now, destroyers/cruisers warships are the least useful because they sit uncomfortably in between speed and combat power. If there is to be a skill just for frigates it would feel artificial and would further degrade the value of normal destroyers.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 04:18:28 AM by Plantissue »
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Embolism

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2019, 05:19:47 AM »

The problem is that IRL ship size classes isn't just about tonnage, it's also about fleet roles. Battleships slug it out, cruisers operate independently, destroyers defend battleships from torpedo boats and frigates... are either small destroyers or big torpedo boats.

In Starsector, ship size is simply a progression mechanic. The intention seems to be that your preferred ship size slowly moves up, until late game when frigates are obsolete and destroyers are barely relevant.

The frigates that do still get used are used because of their supporting abilities (Entropy Amplifier, Terminator Drones), and the new skill system seems to be pushing things more towards that (where smaller ships give a bigger ECM bonus, for example).
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bobucles

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2019, 05:28:13 AM »

Quote
What is a "wolf pack tactics", and who is to say that is how they are meant to be used?
I mean, just Google it? It's a very easily understood tactic where smaller creatures use their speed and numbers to overwhelm a larger one. If there's some other fundamental way for frigates to fight, I'd certainly like to hear it.

Small ships struggle in the game because the primary battlefield is a direct brawl between two fleets. You don't throw cavalry forces down the front line in a total war game, and it doesn't make sense to throw frigates into a direct brawl here. They're too small and squishy for that kind of battle. Players are pressured to use many frigates to get results, but the fleet hard cap favors using only the biggest ships. Frigates typically can't benefit from officers because officers are finite and their talents are force multipliers. Multiplying a small ship doesn't matter as much as multiplying a large ship.  Frigates end up missing out on the talents that they direly need, such as ship recovery, further broadening the gap between small and big. Long weapon ranges also crush the frigate, since they can be picked off without ever getting a chance at combat.

Frigates also suffer on the strategic map. Getting a free full burn 20 with tiny ships is great, but it's not too difficult to get full burn 16-20 with a capital fleet. A frigate with damaged engines can be just as slow as a capital ship. A large pack of frigates punish hyperspace travel, as many space hazards punish your fleet according to ship count. Sensor profile and sensor range also tend to come in matching pairs, so a pack of frigates gains little in the stealth game over a handful of paragons. Many frigates cost 2-4 supplies for deployment, but when they start costing 6-8 supply they're starting to step on the toes of destroyers.

Plantissue

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2019, 06:38:50 AM »

Well, bubuncles, you didn't seem to realise I was being kind and was giving Trashman an out, by allowing him to set what he means and so steer the conversation towrds his actual thoughts. Wolf pack tactics is a clear reference to WW2 U-boat tactics of attacking mass convoys. Since submarines in starsector are phase ships, and phase ships are not using their numbers to overwhelm a larger ship, he is either completely delusional or clearly has another definition of wolf pack tactics that has nothing to do with submarines and phase ships and attacking convoys.

If he meant to say a large number of frigates, he could had written just that as it's pretty much the same amount of words and expresses his intention better, but I suppose you prefer to rob him of that opportunity.

By the way in Total War games, if you happen to have a pure cavalry force it can be a good idea to place cavalry at a front line since the lackluster AI in Total War games, infantry will always turn to face the nearest unit creating opportunity for other cavalry to flank that unit and you would render the concept of a frontline irrelevant in the first place by isolating units. In practice attacking the front and the rear of the unit with cavalry at the same time is exactly the same in TW as charging into the rear of a "frontline".

I just googled wolf pack tactics. Don't know what google gives you, but the entire front page validates my understanding of wolf pack tactics, not yours. Perhaps you would do well to follow your own advice.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 06:52:02 AM by Plantissue »
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bobucles

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2019, 11:14:24 AM »

Quote
Perhaps you would do well to follow your own advice.
There is another type of wolf pack. You seem to be considering the naval definition of a fully equipped task force, the scale of which basically means "your entire fleet" in this game. I just meant the simple canus lupus wolf pack, which I figured would be more obvious given that I was actually referring to animals. As in a literal pack of wolves, surrounding and isolating a target to pick it off.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 11:16:30 AM by bobucles »
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Plantissue

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2019, 05:08:30 AM »

Trashman is perfectly capable of speaking for himself by what he means by "wolf pack tactics". He certainly isn't afraid of voicing his opinions normally and he certainly doesn't need you to do it for him. In any case, even if what you wrote of his meaning is right, who is to say that frigates are meant to be used by surrounding and isolating a target? Is not not how all ships are used normally? Certainly even when using Capital ships I seek to isolate targets, using local superiority and withdrawing ships when not.

That fleet limit exists, the increase in fleet power, that differing time for ship hulls before CR decay exists, that hullmods exists that increases weapon range according to hullsize, that an accelerated start and the tutorial essentially starts you off with a including a mixed fleet of cruiser and destroyers in your fleet all suggest that the Alex's intention is not to be able to develop a fleet of large amounts of small ships as we were able to do so in the past. So even taking your personal interpretation of "wolf pack tactics" which may or may not very well be Trashman's meaning, it is clear that specific view may not be the developer's intentions at all.
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bobucles

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2019, 05:35:20 AM »

Quote
In any case, even if what you wrote of his meaning is right, who is to say that frigates are meant to be used by surrounding and isolating a target?
There's no crime in admitting you were wrong, that your original understanding is mistaken, and to re approach the topic with a fresh mind and a fresh point of view. Step back, take a deep breath, and realize this is a public forum.

Swarming strategies are not new. They've existed for as long as small things have ever had to fight big things. Spend 10 minutes with the game mechanics and you will learn why small ships necessarily fight differently from big ships, and perhaps that pushing your weight around isn't making anyone else look silly.

Quote
That fleet limit exists, the increase in fleet power, that differing time for ship hulls before CR decay exists, that hullmods exists that increases weapon range according to hullsize,
Yes, a lot of game mechanics are in favor of increasing ship size, more firepower and longer battles. That does not automatically render a discussion of small ships invalid. If anything, it opens up questions on the role of smaller ships(and battles) as the game advances. Would it make sense that everyone, everywhere, synchronically grows their fleets and that all battles in the sector spontaneously scale up in level? Probably not, but an outbreak of war could justify more ships huddling together for protection. Perhaps players might want to accomplish objectives using a small elite force, but may struggle when using a larger fleet? There are game elements of stealth, and speed, and special deployment rules that could make such things possible.

Plantissue

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2019, 05:39:35 AM »

There's no crime in admitting you were wrong, that your original understanding is mistaken, and to re approach the topic with a fresh mind and a fresh point of view. Step back, take a deep breath, and realize this is a public forum.
That's right bobucles. Go google "wolf pack tactics". Step back, take a deep breath, and realize this is a public forum.
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bobucles

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2019, 07:32:29 AM »

Oookay. Let's see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V8_HNtyLXk
Looks like a comfy swarm of frigates. They charge in, peel a few cruisers off and swarm them down. Looks like a good wolf pack tactic. I'm not seeing the problem here, unless I'm being trolled?

I don't even know why there's such a huge fuss over understanding something so basic.

lethargie

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2019, 10:22:43 AM »

I don't even know why there's such a huge fuss over understanding something so basic.
A public forum should not allow for personal attack, therefore I cannot give you the reason some people argue about absurdities.

I'll agree current Starsector does not play very well to the wolf pack tactic outside of AI hand. You need multiple fleet to make it work and its not that efficient.

I did find a couple use for frigate, perhaps starting from there we could find some way to improve their use.
  • Fleet distractor: With a torpedo mount, you make sure that the small frigate is never ignored and that makes the AI of ship play differently. You'll see it more if you play modded because you can get faster/more survivable frigate. Sadly, under a certain threshold of survivability, it just rush headlong into a cruiser and die.
  • Fleet pursuer: When hunting system wide bounties, each enemy ship is a load of money. When they are running away, frigate are fast and can come from the side, improving a lot your ability to wipe utility ship. What's cool is you only need 3-4 frigate for that
  • Anti fighter escort: only apply to the omen sadly. I've had some decent success having fleet with no fighters using theses as escort, their low cr timer hurts a lot however
  • Hunting remnant: And by that I mean hunting the annoying last ship running far from all your ship but never retreating.
  • Smuggling: other than phase ship, frigate got the smallest sensor detection range
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majorfreak

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Re: Small ships, battle sizes, fleet limits
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2019, 04:10:06 PM »

Settings.json is your friend.
I have 80 officer/ship limit.

I had to tweak the officer paycheque to avoid going bankrupt. Other than that im having alot of fun fielding frigates to suit the situation.
I dont really worry about the CR issue since they usually expend all their missiles by the time they need to exfil.

Great for cutting off the ai from fleeing.

I used to use a buttload of missile frigates...but then i realized the buffalo2 is only 4pts to deploy. W00t pilum spam!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 04:12:10 PM by majorfreak »
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