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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries V1.3.6: Its dead jim...  (Read 137256 times)

connortron7

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.2) Seeking Imput
« Reply #150 on: October 19, 2020, 06:49:45 PM »

Hello! I think Blast Gun needs another look into. For it's OP strikes me as an underperformer. Prior to it's change of stats and sprites it's been probably too strong option for 90x3*200% against armor, but now it's damage instead of burst turned into the tunneled flow of damage. Though my point of view is as subjective. Otherwise thanks for mod, always a part of my playthroughs from time you've shamelessly recommended it to some rookies on the discord. :^)

thanks!ill be sure to give it a look!

connortron7

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.3) light changes
« Reply #151 on: October 23, 2020, 03:11:34 PM »

some minor changes and removals

Spoiler
V1.3.3: WILL BREAK SAVES
general changes:
removed meme folder from files, save for 1 meme that stays
removed files for HVB bastion, it was removed from the game awhile ago but forgot the files


ships that had a full overhaul including new sprites and stats:
carrion: tuned for a more dedicated support role
flamberge: more tuned for light and fast engagements



removed these ships/weapons:
shotel
mirador
depot
scamp

lucerne:
decreased max armor from 2300 to 2200

bet:
added automated repair unit
added protective mining mounts (forgot to add this from the start)
slightly increased maneuverability
increased max speed from 120 to 145
decreased chargedown time from 15 to 10 seconds

blast gun:
increased damage from 55 to 65

needle PD beam:
increased max ammo from 1 to 2
increased OP cost from 6 to 7


pulse barrage:
fixed hardpoints firing from outside the sprite
decreased time between burst rounds from 0.2 to 0.1 seconds
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.3) light changes
« Reply #152 on: October 23, 2020, 07:35:06 PM »

Just wanted to say thanks for the update again.

For reference for your patch notes, in 1.3.3, you decreased Lucerne base armor from 2300 to 2100, not 2200.  Before, it used to be 2300+230 (armored mounts) = 2530.  Now it is 2100+210=2310.

I admit, I'm kinda sad to see you can't get over 3000 armor value anymore with heavy armor.  Although to be fair, I'm not really sure what is a reasonable armor value given it is a rather unique ship and costs 65 DP to deploy.  Capitals without shields aren't likely to find a place in a player fleet late game given the types of outnumbered battles you sometimes have to take part in.  Certainly <Redacted> would have a field day against this type of ship.  I admit I don't know what place in the game you intended this for.  It does make for quite an interesting NPC opponent.

I've also been playing around with the Kingdom and Silkworm bombers, and can't help but notice they tend to finish they're bombing runs right in front of the target, or sometimes even over it.  It feels like they are having far more bomber losses when compared to Daggers for example.  Unfortunately, I think it might be due to their speed being 25% higher than, say, Dagger bombers.  I don't know how much the shorter weapon range (silkworm starburst)  and attack run range of 1000 matters compared to atropos (single) range of 1200, attack run setting of 2000 for the Dagger.  I vaguely remember its hard to modify the attack run behavior of fighters though.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 07:36:54 PM by Hiruma Kai »
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connortron7

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.3) light changes
« Reply #153 on: October 24, 2020, 11:58:42 AM »

Just wanted to say thanks for the update again.

For reference for your patch notes, in 1.3.3, you decreased Lucerne base armor from 2300 to 2100, not 2200.  Before, it used to be 2300+230 (armored mounts) = 2530.  Now it is 2100+210=2310.

I admit, I'm kinda sad to see you can't get over 3000 armor value anymore with heavy armor.  Although to be fair, I'm not really sure what is a reasonable armor value given it is a rather unique ship and costs 65 DP to deploy.  Capitals without shields aren't likely to find a place in a player fleet late game given the types of outnumbered battles you sometimes have to take part in.  Certainly <Redacted> would have a field day against this type of ship.  I admit I don't know what place in the game you intended this for.  It does make for quite an interesting NPC opponent.

I've also been playing around with the Kingdom and Silkworm bombers, and can't help but notice they tend to finish they're bombing runs right in front of the target, or sometimes even over it.  It feels like they are having far more bomber losses when compared to Daggers for example.  Unfortunately, I think it might be due to their speed being 25% higher than, say, Dagger bombers.  I don't know how much the shorter weapon range (silkworm starburst)  and attack run range of 1000 matters compared to atropos (single) range of 1200, attack run setting of 2000 for the Dagger.  I vaguely remember its hard to modify the attack run behavior of fighters though.

yeah idk how i keep messing that up lol, my bad, hopefully everythings accurate now


honestly i made the lucerne when i wasnt quite satisfied with the bulk of an onslaught, im an aggressive player who likes being on the front lines and the onslaughts shields felt like a waste but without them it could only tank so many missiles, i wanted something thats just raw power and armor focus that i could personally fly late game. ai handles it well enough so i released it into the world.

ill have a look into that down the line, felt alright for me but ill doublecheck, fighter attack run behavior is indeed a lil tricky.

Hiruma Kai

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.3) light changes
« Reply #154 on: October 24, 2020, 01:00:39 PM »

ill have a look into that down the line, felt alright for me but ill doublecheck, fighter attack run behavior is indeed a lil tricky.

Might have just been the particular enemies and what not I was testing against.  Been watching some more fights, and the behavior seems better now.  Not sure what was causing it.  Might be fast enemy ships moving towards the fighter wings.

As I'm officially using Anvil in the tournament, I do have some longer term feedback for the mod, based on testing.

As a balance question, are the pirate Inc ships intended to be bad pirate ships like the Atlas MK II or Colossus MK III, or are they supposed to have normal ship balance for their DP cost?
 The reason I ask is the Outlaw looks like what might be a typo in its OP amount?  Its a 40 deployment cost capital, with mounts just under that of an Odyssey and 2 fighter bays, but only has 190 OP.  It only has 1 fewer medium slot and 2 fewer small slots, and yet has 90 less OP than an Odyssey.

Its stat line is similar to an Onslaught, and the same DP so maybe that is a better comparison?  It has 11 fewer medium mounts, 4 more small mounts and 2 fighter bays.  Assuming 10 OP per fighter bay, 5 OP for smalls, and 10 OP for larges, that would imply 360-110+20+20 = 290.

Hence my question, was 190 OP supposed to be 290 OP?  If its intended to be 190 OP, then the ship deployment cost should probably be dropped due to an inability to actually fit normal weapons and actually be able to fire them.  Given it has a built weapon that uses 500 flux a second, plus a shield that costs 300 flux per second, and only 600 flux dissipation base, the ship in combat builds up 200 flux per second even with no other weapons mounted.

Out of curiosity, for the Lucerne, what was the motivation for the armor drop?  At 65 DP it is more expensive than a Paragon, and if you try putting say, 2 of these ships up against 2 Paragon they lose every time.  Even at the old armor level.  Admittedly this is without any skills involved.  A 10 DP advantage should in general win pretty convincingly though. Even against 3 shield bypass Onslaughts, they'll lose depending on how the debris ends up blocking shots with the current 2200 armor.

With 2200 armor, I'd guess a Lucerne is somewhere in the 55 to 60 DP range, not 65.  The reason being as soon as there are multiple ships, backing off becomes possible, and ships can come in with fresh shields against the Lucerne.  The bigger and longer the fight, the worse off the ship is.  Even the old 2300 probably wasn't worth 65 DP is my guess.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 01:13:47 PM by Hiruma Kai »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.3) light changes
« Reply #155 on: October 24, 2020, 10:39:02 PM »

Edit: I'm starting to realize some of my initial testing impressions aren't holding up as well as I thought in a fleet context.  I'm going to wait until after the tournament for further feedback, and I'm probably going to revise some of the below in that context.
End of Edit.

I realize this is a giant dump of feedback, but its somewhat based on testing experiences trying to find a fleet that will work for the tournament.  These of course are my own opinions, and it wouldn't surprise me if others point out problems with my suggestions.

I'm also only slightly sad that some of the recent nerfs made some of my anvil test fleets from a few days ago not really succeed anymore against the provided test fleets.  Oh well.

Going through the Anvil ships, I feel many of them have too few OPs to meet their weapon loadouts.  I'm constantly finding myself leaving a good fraction of mounts empty, unlike most (but not all) vanilla ships.

I assume a small slot implies 5 OP, medium implies 10 OP, and large is 20 OP.
In general, 1 large slot is worth 2 mediums or 4 smalls.
I know there is an old post in the modding section advocating an addition 15/30/45/75 OP based on size however vanilla ships don't seem to follow this anymore.  In the following I look at a low tech, mid-line and high tech ship in each category and look at how many OP it has relative to its weapons loadout.

Lasher, 4 DP: 7 smalls (35+15=50, has 55)
Centurion, 4 DP: 7 smalls (35+15=50, has 55 OP)
Wolf, 5 DP: 5 smalls, 1 medium (25+10+15=50, has 55)

This implies to me most combat frigates should have base 20 OP, plus weapons.

Enforcer, 9 DP: 5 mediums, 4 smalls (50+20+30=100, has 110 OP)
Hammerhead, 10 DP: 2 mediums, 6 smalls (20+30+30=80, has 95 OP)
Medusa, 12 DP: 2 mediums, 7 smalls (20+35+30=85, has 95 OP)

This implies to me most combat destroyers should have base 40 OP, plus OP for weapons.

Dominator, 25 DP: 2 large, 5 medium, 9 smalls (40+50+45+45=180, has 190 OP)
Eagle, 22 DP: 6 medium, 7 smalls (60+35+45=140, has 155 OP)
Apogee, 18 DP: 2 large, 2 medium, 5 smalls (40+20+25+45=130, has 140 OP)

This implies to me most combat cruisers should have base 50 OP, plus OP for weapons.

Onslaught, 40 DP: 3 large, 13 medium, 6 smalls (60+130+30+75= 295, has 360)
Conquest, 40 DP: 6 large, 8 medium, 8 smalls (120+80+40+75=315, has 315 + 40 from balistics integration for a net 355)
Paragon, 60 DP: 4 large, 6 medium, 13 smalls (80+60+65+75=280, has 370)

This implies to me most combat capitals should have a base OP of 115 to 165.  It has the most variability, and think is used to tune ships the most at this tier.

OP can be used as a balancing point if the ship has something out of the ordinary that it brings to the table.  However, many of the Anvil ships are pretty straight forward in design, and I think should be fairly close to vanilla OP values given their weapons loadouts.  DP can then be determined after that, but a majority of anvil ships feel like they are OP starved.

So following is my take on the Anvil combat frigates through destroyers.

Flail, 4 DP: 4 smalls, has 40 OP, which is what I'd expect.  The only real issue I have with this ship is its actually quite vulnerable to fighters, because of the narrow shield arcs.  Its not actually that good with dealing with them.  A pair of thunders will take its engine out in short order.  Otherwise, its good for keeping flanks clear of other frigates and maybe distracting a destroyer.

Flamberge, 4 DP: 5 smalls, has 40 OP.  This is a bit light, I would expect this to have 45 for a vanilla ship.  One might argue its a balancing point for its speed, but on the other hand its already got fairly low health and flux stats.

Axe, 4 DP: 1 Medium, 3 smalls, has 45 OP, which is what I'd expect.  It is a shieldless frigate on the slow side?  As soon as a destroyer or large shows up, this goes pop very quickly.  I suppose in a 1 on 1 frigate fight its okay, but this doesn't have much redeeming value in fleet fights.

Mutt, 6 DP: 2 Medium, 2 smalls, has 50 OP, which is what I'd expect.  Its interesting, in the fact that its fast, and can mount a medium ballistic, so nominally hard flux out to 1000 units.  Plus a medium missile mount.  It makes for an okay sniper frigate.  Good dissipation, but lower end base flux pool.

Sparrow, 5 DP: 2 Medium, 1 small, has 35 OP.  I would have expected 45 OP.  Nearest vanilla comparison is Vigilance, with 2 mediums, also fast missile racks, and has 45 OP (so its even a bit higher than 20 + weapons), and most people don't consider the vigilance to be great.  This could probably benefit from bumping to 45 OP.  As it is, with speed 55, its a very slow missile spammer, unable to kite which is what'd you want from salamander or pilum spammer.  It has good armor and hull for a frigate, but terrible flux stats so not much in the way of shield.  It goes pop as soon as something gets close.  To be honest, you could raise the speed to 90 or 100, it would still be slower than most combat frigates, but at least it wouldn't be slower than some capitals.  You've already got a 165 speed medium missile mount plus medium ballistic in the form of the Mutt.

Hatchet, 4 DP: 1 Medium, 4 smalls, has 45 OP.  I would have expected 50.  Its slow for a frigate, but its also approaching destroyer levels of health, and has a medium ballistic slot, so that seems like a fair trade off.

Rapier, 12 DP: 1 Medium, 9 smalls, has 85 OP.  I would have expected 95.  I like the concept.  Faster destroyer but with only smalls means it can't take advantage of the medium ballisitics range advantage to kite, which helps balance it.  Dissipation is a bit low for a midline-ish 12 DP destroyer though.  Maybe that is okay given its speed, armor and health?  Personally I'd probably bump the dissipation to 250 as well, given there are mid-line vanilla frigates with that much dissipation (Brawler comes to mind with 250 dissipation and 450 armor).

Cielo, 10 DP: 2 Medium, 3 smalls, has 65 OP. I would have expected 75 OP.  This feels like a dedicate support ship that doesn't survive on its own.  I think you were going for a omen vibe, based on the drones, as well as a support ship based on the ability.  The problem is it doesn't really mesh well.

Omens work because of their small size, high speed, good 360 degree shields, and flux free EMP ability all work to compliment to keep the ship alive.

Here you've got a typical sized destroyer, with cruiser tier speed, and normal midline shield stats.  It wants to get up to nearly point blank to actually use its range 0 EMP drones.  Its only real weapons are energy weapons, which normally assume fast and high flux capacity (or alternatively, a really good shield ship with potentially a range boost).  And doesn't really have the flux or OP to mount decent weapons.  So all you're really bringing the ship for is the Afflictor system.  Which, is a good system, but given how fragile this ship is compared to an elusive afflictor, I feel like the whole package doesn't quite work.  Especially when relying on the AI to pick targets.  If nobody else is shooting the target it picks, the +50% damage bonus is essentially unused.  Compare to a hammerhead using its ship system.  Basically a +100% damage bonus for a destroyer's worth of damage.

First thing I'd do would be raise the base OP to 75.  Beyond that there a couple different things you could try, probably not all at once. 

Option 1) Raise the drone range to 1800 or 2000 (roughly the range of the afflictor system).  This allows it to better support without getting to point blank range with a slow chassis.

Option 2) Push more towards being like the Apogee.  Compare an Apogee (18 DP) to say, a Falcon (15 DP).  Nearly twice the flux pool (12000 vs 7000) and twice the flux dissipation (350 vs 700).  So compare this to a Hammerhead.  Bump the flux pool to maybe 6000 and dissipation to 350, or maybe flux pool to 7000 and dissipation to 300.  Give it the option to mount something other than graviton beams.

Option 3) Increase speed to destroyer baseline of 90 or maybe 100 (high tech destroyer speed).  Which lets it actually run away from cruisers after getting close.

If you don't like any of the above options, I'd probably drop the deployment points to 8 or 9.  Its not worth as much as a Hammerhead as it is, whose self-support system probably will provide better returns and is more likely to survive.  In fleet tests, mixing in 1 or 2 doesn't help the fleet much, as it needs to be able to hold the line as well as support, since its taking a destroyer slot, and just collapses too quickly.

Cudgel, 20 DP: 6 Mediums, has 85 OP.  I'd expect 100 OP given the weapons.  However, I'm not really sure what this ship is trying to do. Its ship system actively interferes with the ability to phase.  It costs 20 DP, but loses head to head with a 10 DP baseline simulator hammerhead, unless I go expanded missile racks and just spam missiles.  Which doesn't need a phase system to do, and runs out quickly.  It doesn't have the flux stats to sustain 4 ballistic weapons - certainly not after phasing in close.

It lacks even token PD, which means a few fighters will take it down in short order, once they get through the armor.  I get that its tough, with twice the hitpoints of a Harbinger, but the majority of a phase ship's defense is in its speed and ability to position, not its raw hit points.  Also, a good portion of vanilla phase ship value is in its ship system.  Doom is not near worth 35 points without its mine system for example.

I guess its one redeeming feature is it can carry two medium mounts worth of missiles?  In that case, I'd almost say fast missile racks would be a better system for this ship.  I'm assuming you made the missiles point off centerline to prevent double reapers?  Which limits it to seeking missiles like harpoons or starburst.  But to be honest, the sparrow, a 5 DP ship, pulls it all of much better for 1/4 of the cost.

I guess I'd like to hear what you'd like this phase ship to do in most fights?  Missile spam? Snipe from range?  And how it does it in a way that makes it worth two hammerheads.

Culvern, 14 DP, colorful: 3 Mediums, 7 smalls, has 95 OP.  I would expect 105 OP.  Feels over costed at 14 DP with its current flux stats, speed and OP.    Especially against any type of ship with some reasonable PD.  At 14 DP, it is hard not compare it to the pirate Falcon for only 1 DP more.  Falcon (P) is faster with its ship system, base faster with the built in Unstable injector, and can carry roughly twice as many missiles, and doesn't need fast racks with 4 medium missile mounts.  Plus has much beter flux stats, armor, and health.  I'd probably drop it to 10 DP to be honest.  An Enforcer can pull off a similar initial missile salvo, and still has a solid base of guns to use afterwards, and only costs 9 DP.  Alternatively, you could try upping stats, maybe give it expanded missile racks built in or a few other things to make it actually be worth the 14 deployment points.

Morgenstern, 13 DP: 2 Mediums, 10 smalls, 110 OP, which is what I'd expect.  I really like this ship.  Even if I'm still fitting it with half the weapon slots empty.  Its fairly flexible in how you can outfit it.  Straight in safety overrides, long range sniper, anti-matter blasters, ion cannons, potentially a fair bit of point defense if you want it.  Its unfortunately, on the pricey side for the tournament though.  Massed cheaper destroyers tend to do better, although in a campaign I could imagine using this as your command ship during the destroyer phase.  It feels a tad slow for a 13 DP high tech destroyer, but perhaps that is for the best given the two medium ballistics it has.  And it does have a mobility system, so its fine for pursuit.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 10:52:49 AM by Hiruma Kai »
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connortron7

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.4) tournament balance patch
« Reply #156 on: October 30, 2020, 02:36:15 PM »

I realize this is a giant dump of feedback, but its somewhat based on testing experiences trying to find a fleet that will work for the tournament.  These of course are my own opinions, and it wouldn't surprise me if others point out problems with my suggestions.


i read through your suggestions and made some changes based on them, but not 1 for 1 obviously.

as for the cudgel and axe, well the cudgels something i keep forgetting to remove, was supposed to go last update but well, forgot, its a bad ship that i dont feel deserves fixed as a phase ship doesnt really fit anvil much, and the axe is one of the next ships to get a complete overhual with new sprite to hopefully make it more of a viable ship.


new update changes
Spoiler
V1.3.4: save safe
general changes:
descriptions looked over and updated by JRG#5310 on discord
removed CARRIER and COMBAT tags from battlecarriers so they act as proper combat ships rather then stay back like dedicated carriers


flamberge:
increased max OP from 40 to 45

sparrow:
increased max speed from 55 to 85
increased max OP from 35 to 40

bouncer:
increased fuel per light year from 3 to 4


cielo:
increased max speed from 75 to 90
increased max OP from 65 to 75
increased max flux from 5100 to 5800
increased max dissipation from 230 to 300

flail:
increased shield arc from 75 to 150
added accelerated shield

gangstar:
changed angle of rear small mounts
increased max speed from 45 to 55


rapier:
increased max dissipation from 200 to 260

all culverins:
increased max OP from 95 to 100
decreased supplies per month and DP from 14 to 11


lucerne:
armor increased from 2100 to 2150 (dont @ me, im bit of a mess rn lol)


needle beam:
decreased OP cost from 7 to 6 (idk why i changed it to 7, sorry.)

outlaw:
decreased supplies per month and DP from 40 to 35
[close]

« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 06:44:27 PM by connortron7 »
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KMS

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.5) another tournament update
« Reply #157 on: November 04, 2020, 05:35:43 PM »

Hi gang,

I've been playing a Nexerelin run as Anvil Industries. I've noticed that none of Anvil's fleets contain Anvil ship designs. Anvil ships are available to purchase in the markets of other factions, but our markets only have low-tech ships. Is this normal? I know that factions will use low-tech ships with D-mods if they're in a bad economic situation, but I'm surprised that not a single Anvil ship has shown up in Anvil territory so far.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 07:02:37 PM by King Megascience »
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connortron7

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.5) another tournament update
« Reply #158 on: November 05, 2020, 12:13:53 AM »

Hi gang,

I've been playing a Nexerelin run as Anvil Industries. I've noticed that none of Anvil's fleets contain Anvil ship designs. Anvil ships are available to purchase in the markets of other factions, but our markets only have low-tech ships. Is this normal? I know that factions will use low-tech ships with D-mods if they're in a bad economic situation, but I'm surprised that not a single Anvil ship has shown up in Anvil territory so far.



Idk who the "gang" is, but things that generally cause that problem are the omni forge being disrupted and being unable to produce ships or crucible itself was invaded forcing them to import

KMS

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.5) another tournament update
« Reply #159 on: November 05, 2020, 01:56:09 AM »

Ah I see, I'm using randomly-generated core worlds, is that the problem?
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connortron7

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.5) another tournament update
« Reply #160 on: November 05, 2020, 02:13:35 AM »

Ah I see, I'm using randomly-generated core worlds, is that the problem?
that could very well be it, that has the 3rd possibility of them not spawning with a heavy industry

KMS

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.5) another tournament update
« Reply #161 on: November 05, 2020, 02:14:36 AM »

Alright. I'm not super familiar with Nexerelin, so is there a chance they'll build a heavy industry at some point on their own?
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connortron7

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.5) another tournament update
« Reply #162 on: November 05, 2020, 02:31:25 AM »

Alright. I'm not super familiar with Nexerelin, so is there a chance they'll build a heavy industry at some point on their own?
Not very familiar with random sector tbh, but i do know nex allows ai to build industry's so i think when they have room, either through taking/making colonies or when the ones they own grow they might build one.

KMS

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.5) another tournament update
« Reply #163 on: November 05, 2020, 02:45:27 AM »

Ok, fingers crossed. Thanks for the help!
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connortron7

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Re: [0.9.1a] Anvil Industries(V:1.3.6) very small tournament update
« Reply #164 on: November 26, 2020, 02:04:52 PM »

minor update for the tournament

V: 1.3.6: save safe


starburst:
decreased speed from 450 to 375
increased flight time to 8s compensate for loss of range
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 02:15:46 PM by connortron7 »
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