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Author Topic: New player : Tarrif questions  (Read 14290 times)

AINC_07_STALKER

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New player : Tarrif questions
« on: September 18, 2019, 11:37:27 PM »

So been playing for around 60 hours now.
Have a decent sized fleet of cruisers , with 4* 1150 capacity ( using cargo hull mods )  heavy frieghters.

Issue i am having now is ....

1. Tariffs are killing me. Literally losing money on trades. :  Is there a known method to edit and turn these down to a lower amount than 30%.
    Large volume trading always results in lower prices on sales .... but with 30% tariffs .. i cant trade in volumes above 1000 units.

2. Deficit unit requirements :  Seen planets with zero production - 4+ levels of production for a product required.  And only asking for 500 to 1000 units.
    Is there a way to edit those amounts?

    IE: X amount of units = 1 supply level of unit.

Thank you in advance.

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goduranus

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2019, 12:15:34 AM »

black market?

Plantissue

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2019, 03:32:37 AM »

You aren't supposed to easily make money from open market large volume trading by design. If your transponder is off and not caught by patrols, you can trade on the black market without losing reputation. You can easily make lots of money by accepting and doing procurement missions or bar missions.
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bobucles

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2019, 09:47:05 AM »

Don't be afraid of the black market. Your avatar is SUPER discreet on the planet, and the major risk is factor is you end up attracting cargo scans from the local space patrols. If you have no black market risk they won't care and won't ruin your day with a scan. If your trades are small, the risk stays small and they don't care. If your fleet makes a clean getaway it's also fine, fleet patrol memories seem to be short. My experience with getting caught is limited, but I haven't been busted with ordinary goods even though I never paid the tariffs for them. More veteran players might know more.

Flying with your transponder off is a double edged sword. Some factions will run right at you and you'll take the rep hit if you get caught, plus the planet won't trade while a fleet patrol is after you, plus there's a potential battle if you refuse their demands. It can be even more dangerous than running black market trades with the transponder on.

I don't recommend any type of blockade running until you unlock the transverse jump skill. You can drop directly on a planet from hyperspace, run a trade and escape without being forced through an unguarded jump point. Fantastic for piracy.

One of the big disadvantages of the black market is they tend to be smaller than public markets. It can be more difficult to equip a fleet with 200 black market supplies, compared to the 400 supplies on the open market. Big problems for big fleets.

Locklave

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2019, 10:47:53 AM »

Being a normal merchant is not viable way to make money or grow in this game.

People like to say "do whatever you want", but if you bring it up on the forums, the lack of viability, you will be met by people saying it shouldn't be allowed or goes against the intent of the game. I've personally been it arguments about that. As if making it viable would some how steal away their way of playing.

Small scale trading is has a tiny profit margin, anything larger scale is less then zero profit. Buying Tariffs + Buying markup + Selling Tariffs + Selling markdown = no profit.
This situation is made worse by terrible trade mission scaling, "GET ME 10,000 SUPPLIES IN 30 DAYS!". Sure, I'll stop in at 40 planets and get those supplies in 30 days...

Smuggling is super profitable, Drugs/Organs/Arms/Troops. Do this if you want to trade, this is the only trading that is enjoyable/viable and rewarding.

I sound bitter I bet. I am. Normal trading should be viable. Shortages only make black markets more trades profitable, they don't fix legit trading.
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wei270

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2019, 12:33:48 PM »

In the older ver of star sector, there are explosion in market demand and supply where open market trading could be profitable, but i noticed that these have gone down in frequency and scale, so the only real way to make money now is requisition( often times end up being smuggling), exploration, and bounty( bounty on star base is enough to supply large fleet).
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mvp7

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2019, 01:42:11 PM »

If I'm not mistaken, supply and demand are one of the few things that don't really scale as the game progresses. Having a bit more sizable deficits in late game could help make non-mission trading a bit more viable for those who enjoy it.
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Eji1700

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2019, 01:49:34 PM »

Being a normal merchant is not viable way to make money or grow in this game.

People like to say "do whatever you want", but if you bring it up on the forums, the lack of viability, you will be met by people saying it shouldn't be allowed or goes against the intent of the game. I've personally been it arguments about that. As if making it viable would some how steal away their way of playing.

Small scale trading is has a tiny profit margin, anything larger scale is less then zero profit. Buying Tariffs + Buying markup + Selling Tariffs + Selling markdown = no profit.
This situation is made worse by terrible trade mission scaling, "GET ME 10,000 SUPPLIES IN 30 DAYS!". Sure, I'll stop in at 40 planets and get those supplies in 30 days...

Smuggling is super profitable, Drugs/Organs/Arms/Troops. Do this if you want to trade, this is the only trading that is enjoyable/viable and rewarding.

I sound bitter I bet. I am. Normal trading should be viable. Shortages only make black markets more trades profitable, they don't fix legit trading.
Yeah there's sort of an odd problem in that I've basically stopped caring about the black market and just see it as the "real" market.  The rep hits are so minimal and so rare, while it's the only way to make money (and tons of it, even off normal goods) through trading. 
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Sarissofoi

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2019, 01:55:03 PM »

I had some ideas about how black market/official market should actually work instead of current situation where official market is zero and black market print money.
>size(share) of official market/black market is influenced by stability(and base/planet modifiers from administrators, buildings and other stuff)
>that mean high stability planet would have most of the goods on open market with only small amount on black one
>stability also affects bribes needed for buying stuff from black market - high stability mean more % you need spend on bribes, buying it with transponders on also increase amount of bribes needed to buy stuff, friendly crime contact reduce it, maybe even influence amount of stuff you can buy(like changing stability ratio for open/black market share calculation)
>high military presence increase both bribes needed as a size of a black market
>but high rep and commission reduce tariffs on open market, commission reduce it for the faction obviously(also some for the commission if you have allied faction commission, less if not allied but friendly, much less if neutral - commission mean that you are legal and have papers right)
>high rep and commission also allow to trade in normally illegal goods like drugs or weapons(think about it as a having weapon trader or medicine drug trader license)
>rep reduce tariffs(plus local rep with local bozos reduce it even more) to the point that you actually can get some discount if you have commission, high rep and friendly contacts in place
>high rep and commission allow even trading in illegal normally goods(like you get weapon and medical drugs license sort off) on open market
>low stability colony would have most of their goods on black market with no bribes needed
>open port of course affect both black market share and amount of tariffs/bribes
>similar thing would be affecting ship market
>high stability would offer low black market choice with high mark up>military worlds would offer more with even higher markup but have increased chance for more and better ships>low stability worlds would have plenty ships on black market that are sold almost openly

bobucles

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2019, 02:10:45 PM »

Quote
Being a normal merchant is not viable way to make money or grow in this game.
I have $2mil that says you're wrong. There is definitely good money to be made on pure, 0 mission trade and a small amount of cash can grow very quickly. It's not the best option in the world but it is absolutely viable.

The economy tracking system isn't pretty. From what I can tell, there's no strategic market tracker so the only way to locate trade demand is to Noah's Ark a single unit of every trade good in your inventory at all times. Not all areas of space have remote price data (I can't find clear indicators of trade beacons), and each beacon may track different planets as well. Whip out the pencil/paper because you'll be running half a dozen separate trade routes at once, buying up cheap goods when they're available and slam dunking 1-2 things when you find big money buyers.

Obviously you should trade everything on the black market, or the 30% tariff will murder you. When buying over the black market limit, get the cheapest items from the public market first to minimize the tariff penalty. Then load up on black market goods to avoid tariffs.

The best trade goods are obviously the illegal things. Marines can easily double your investment (beware the $20/month salary!) and heavy machinery has extremely good margins in small numbers. Ordinary supplies can do all right. Always keep an eye out for "demand" and "surplus" bargains, but be careful that not all factions will pay top dollar. Anything less than 50$ profit per cargo is a waste of fuel, but it's better to trade something than fly with an empty cargo hold. If a big organ buyer also needs supplies and fuel, do it all to make the most of the trip.

There will be far fewer trade missions on the map because you'll be doing them all ahead of time, which is a shame because they always give excellent deals.

Plantissue

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2019, 02:18:24 PM »

I think it was clear that his definition of being a "normal merchant" involves trading on the open market, not trading in the black market, since he talks about tariffs and how smuggling is profitable by comparison

It's probably a problem that we don't really have fixed words for all of the various trading types we can do.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 02:22:48 PM by Plantissue »
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bobucles

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2019, 07:19:59 PM »

Quote
If your transponder is off and not caught by patrols, you can trade on the black market without losing reputation
If your transponder is on and you walk through the front door, you can trade on the black market while GAINING reputation. It may seem a bit like an exploit, but I don't think the colonial governor is going to complain when their 1000 food shortage gets quietly resolved.

Most of the faction penalties seem to come from trading illegal goods. Just trading on the black market isn't a sin on its own, but it will draw in patrol fleets eager to scan your cargo.

Paying the full tax is definitely not a regular thing anyone should do. The pirate market is excellent for small scale merchants, if you're typically trading 20-50k chances are you won't face any consequences. Regular market trade is more useful for fulfilling special trade order, since those can be very difficult and offer great margins, and as a way of "bribing" planets to avoid trouble late game.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 07:24:10 PM by bobucles »
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DaLagga

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2019, 09:52:04 PM »

Quote
Being a normal merchant is not viable way to make money or grow in this game.
I have $2mil that says you're wrong. There is definitely good money to be made on pure, 0 mission trade and a small amount of cash can grow very quickly. It's not the best option in the world but it is absolutely viable.

Sure, but how long did that take and how much effort was it?  Because a large endgame fleet can easily devour ~250k+ credits worth of supplies and fuel alone per month so that 2 mil will be gone very quickly.  Obviously you can switch off between trade and battle fleets as needed but that gets incredibly tedious.  The reality is that there's really only two ways to reliably sustain a large endgame fleet and that's bounties and/or colonies.  Trading can certainly be a very good way of making some money in the early to mid game but the profits fall off a cliff in the endgame due to the static nature of available goods. 
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Yunru

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2019, 10:07:36 PM »

Sure, but how long did that take and how much effort was it?  Because a large endgame fleet can easily devour ~250k+ credits worth of supplies and fuel alone per month so that 2 mil will be gone very quickly.  Obviously you can switch off between trade and battle fleets as needed but that gets incredibly tedious.  The reality is that there's really only two ways to reliably sustain a large endgame fleet and that's bounties and/or colonies.  Trading can certainly be a very good way of making some money in the early to mid game but the profits fall off a cliff in the endgame due to the static nature of available goods.
And why shouldn't it?

mitthrawnuruodo

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Re: New player : Tarrif questions
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2019, 11:09:11 PM »

I agree trading is not a viable or worthwhile activity, and mad tariffs is one of the major reasons for it. As long as trading is in the game, it should be balanced in a way that it is viable way to make money. Otherwise it is a complete waste of game development.

"But you are not supposed to make money on the open market!" Then might as well remove the open market. Remove the freighters from the game. Not to mention it is pretty nonsensical. There are hundreds of giant trade fleets in the game. If trading is not supposed to be profitable, why and how do they exist?

If the game is to be a good sandbox experience, all aspects of it should be worthwhile and have its own progression system. A trade-focused player should look forward to gradually upgrading from Hermes to Buffalo to Atlas.
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