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Author Topic: Pricing on buldings  (Read 1403 times)

Q8

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Pricing on buldings
« on: September 15, 2019, 02:32:18 PM »

So I played the new patch, found out that the pricing on buildings got waaaaaayyyy upped, aaaaaand i dont like it.
To be honest, I never liked that the economy is textbook schizophrenic, but i figured, that maybe i am alone in this, since i never saw anyone bitching about that specific subject in here. Or at least, not often enough.
Now tho, am completely perplexed!
I get that the player has nothing to do with money lategame. But upping the prices on buildings wont fix that, because lategame starts when all the buildings are already built. Until that point, we are still in the midgame, and upping the prices in the midgame, when the player doesnt have the "too much money" issue yet, does nothing except prolonging the midgame. Especially, since midgame is about fleet building anyway, so it would be much more sensible to upp the prices on ships, or guns. Guns and mods especially. Guns are dirt cheap, and mods are even cheaper since the player cant lose them. And even if they werent, the game is set in such a way, that the player can go without buying those at all.
 
But okay, maybe we want midgame prolonged. But if thats the case, then why is that way, the way to go about it? Well, dont make me wrong. That will work. All im saying is that on a quality scale of 1 to 10, this idea is like 3max. If we really want to **** with pricing, then instead of making a flat out rise, why not make buildings cost materials instead? This is a simple, run of the mill solution. If we want battlestations to cost 500k, lets make it 100k + 400K in materials like steel, ore, machines, crew and ***. That way we end up in the same place, but in the meantime we managed to tie the player into the economy. Because now, there is another reason to follow it, and another decision to be made. Now, the player has to look for cheap, or pay the piper... Maybe buy an Atlas or two, that were never used before the lategame, just to be able to deliver it? (and maybe we would like to tie him to the exploration as well, and make buildings, or building upgrades cost items like brown IA cores etc? they are useless after a point anyway)
Btw, that would even make more sense from immersion point of view, since i dont see how is it not immersion breaking, that all it takes, is to dump some currency on a lifeless planet, wait 60days, and kaboom! theres a refinery.

Then again, as i said before, economy is trying her hardest to divorce herself from the rest of the experience, even tho, all the incentives for going back into the main game loop, are lodged into her... and so heres my paranoia.

But back to the lategame "too much money" problem.
First, I will allow myself a shot, and assume, that lategame will be about war. Because i just dont see, about what else it could be, if all the map is explored, and all planets taken, etc.
And second, it has to be said, that the "too much money" problem creates itself because of the colonies. Colonies make too much cash. But they cant make less, because if they got nerfed, they would become underwhelming and/or pointless. So how to nerf the colonies, without nerfing the colonies?
Heres an idea. What if there be a slider, that takes the cash of off the colonies earnings, and boosts the fleets that the colony employs? That way, if the player wants, he may zero on the slider, and protect his colonies himself, or max out on the slider, spend the cash, and be allowed a leeway. Especially in the lategame, when he has more than one colony. Coz one colony is easy to defend. But to defend 3 or 4 against every expedition and pirate raid?
And so that would create an illusion of a great earning, but the player would not get most of the cash for himself...

Anyway, maybe am exaggerating a nonissue...
Thx for reading.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 04:07:47 PM by Q8 »
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Alex

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2019, 02:56:09 PM »

Hi, and welcome to the forum!

Right, yeah, the buildings are more expensive to extend the midgame, i.e. how long it takes to build up a colony. As you point out, it obviously doesn't function as a money sink past that point :) And, yeah, very similar thoughts as far as the endgame and what the player might be able to spend ridiculous amounts of credits on!

About as your suggestion about using resources instead of using credits - this is something I really like in theory. All the things you point out sound good - a decision to pay more or work for it more, stuff to do to get the resources, etc. But, what would this become in practice?

Presumably it's substantially cheaper to use resources. It's either that, or you might make more credits doing other things in the time it takes to gather up those resources - so you'd just pay instead. This will vary depending on what the player is capable of doing. So, let's assume it's cheaper enough that they want to bring in resources by hand.

The main sources of resources are core colonies. So you'd end up hauling a bunch of stuff from core any time you need to make another building, and that... kind of just sounds like a chore. Metals etc you might get from combat, but you're doing combat anyway, so it's not like this is opening up a new thing you might do.

If there were other, more interesting and reliable ways to get cheaper resources, then this might work! Again, I like the idea in theory, quite a bit. It just seems to me like it would need a bunch of other things to actually work out well.

(Btw, please don't misspell profanity to get around the profanity filter...)
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Q8

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2019, 04:07:06 PM »

Hello, Iv actually been here before, awhile back, but i lost an acc, nevermind...

Yes, I actually saw that answer coming at me before i posted the question, and decided to do it anyway, because i think, if u allow me to say "i think" since who cares what i think, that solving the problem that that change would create is a lot easier, and more straight forward than fixing the problems the state of the game today presents. Let me count afew. First, an immersion issue i hinted at before, you could say that thats not a big deal, i get it. Second, its boring. If you think about it, colonies doesnt need you at all! All you have to do, is plant them. Your money is global, so after planting them, you can just build from the Command Tab, and there is nothing there anyway. (Weirdly enough, supplying in your own stockpiles, are usually more expensive, since prices there are not economy based.) Third, you making it like it is now, cuts out against those players, that just love the idea of being involved in everything their planets. I would risk to guess, that there may be quite afew players like that. But i dont know, you tell me! Forth, buildings are so expensive, that if you dont know what is waiting for you after you push the "colonize" button(new players, and those that play first time since the patch), you get hit by the dissonance between the price of 1k dudes and 200 supply versus the cheapest of buildings, that is like 100k. And you end up in a limbo, with a colony that does noting, is useless, and you cant do *** about it, because you just dont have 100k for a mine. Okay, Ill stop here. On the other hand, if you made it... eee, the other way, you could end up with some players thinking its a chore, exactly as you said. But that is a one problem, that is fixable, i... brrr 'think', quite easily. From the top of my head. You could make waystations useful, and make them pull the resources for the buildings for a cost. Maybe that would take longer, or be more expensive, or anything really. But it would work. And it would, as a bonus, fix the problem of waystations being, well, kinda useless...

But maybe you are right. Or at least this is not the best hill to die on.

(i didn't do that on purpose, as you can see one line below, where i didnt, but im sorry nonetheless)
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sotanaht

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2019, 04:42:08 PM »

Waystations are anything but useless.  They force the colony to stockpile supplies and fuel in large amounts.  A waystation with an alpha core on a decent-sized colony is practically required to supply a very large late-game fleet, unless you like the idea of flying to dozens of colonies (burning fuel on the way) to collect fuel and supply.  The average coloney holds around 500-1000 fuel and supply across all available markets.  A waystation can have 20k fuel waiting for you.

Waystations are technically supposed to be built in remote colonies to serve as refueling points in the deep parts of the sector, but I doubt very many people build far-flung colonies like that out of fear of constant raids and having to fly back and forth to deal with pirates and pathers all the time.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 04:46:33 PM by sotanaht »
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Alex

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2019, 04:44:53 PM »

I see what you're saying, but... you say "boring", but I say "it's just not a thing". "Boring" would be having to haul resources etc, here you don't really need to do anything aside from spend the money and can do other things instead. This being pretty hands-off is intentional, though I wouldn't completely close the door to things of that nature.

I mean, if there are fun things that can be added that help you do colony stuff, that's good! Just, for reasons in my previous response, I think this would be troublesome instead, at least if implemented without other changes alongside it.

I think a lot of this is also because colonies, right now, are a tool without a problem to solve, aside from some relatively minor ones such as "ship/weapon production from blueprints". Once you can actually *do things* using them, I feel like not having to do some micromanagement/maintenance type things yourself would just be welcome. Have to see exactly how endgame things pan out, though; don't want to oversell them without having seen how it all works.


(i didn't do that on purpose, as you can see one line below, where i didnt, but im sorry nonetheless)

(Ah! No worries then :D)
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Q8

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2019, 05:06:13 PM »

@sotanaht
This whole topic is about early to midgame, where the player is scraping the bottom of the barrel where it comes to cash. Thats the perspective i called waystations bad from.
Waystation is the cheapest building in the game, so, you would assume, that it would be an earlygame bulding, but its not. Early to midgame, they are kinda, i say it again, kinda useless.

@Alex
Fair enough.
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mvp7

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2019, 06:48:31 AM »

I think how, where and when you build your colony is a big factor here. It sounds like you are starting yours really early Q8.

By the time I had explored enough and found a system I liked, there was about 6 million credits in my bank. I started two colonies at the same time and the only building that felt expensive at all was the 3rd level upgrade to the space stations. I don't think it makes much sense to start a colony before you have the money to build and develop it.

Personally I would rather pay credits to avoid hauling resources to the colony myself. As long as money remains an option I wouldn't mind resource gathering being an option as well (although I don't think it really adds anything to the game).

Waystation was an absolutely vital building to my colonies right from the start since I was 20 light years away from the nearest core system (and 30 from the nearest cheap supply and fuel). My third colony was waystation first and foremost because I used it as a forward base for my exploration.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 06:50:11 AM by mvp7 »
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Q8

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2019, 08:47:16 AM »

And i think, that when, where and how i build my colonies is not only not a big factor, but its not important at all. I scarcely spoke about myself. Im not writing a guide on how to "properly" play the game, im in the development subforum. And if i wanted the game to be more to my, subjective liking, i would ask for more boobs.

Game allows you to spawn in the map, make one trade run, buy a transport ship, and colonize the first planet you stumble upon, even inside the core worlds. If you go through the intro/tutorial, you dont even need to buy a ship, since you get few boats that are good enough. And after that, the game becames the new spin of itself, where everybody and their mothers are hell bent on bombing you out of existence for various reasons, while you try to hung on to your boots while scraping whatever is scrapable, and making trade/pirate runs whenever you got a break from constant raiding.
Whatever you think about it, this type of play is allowed and possible, and because its allowed and possible, somebody will play it like that.
And thats why i asked.  Because that type of play is really low on cash, since  one thing u dont get from fighting alot, is money, and money is what you need to elbow yourself a place in a system with a battle station that costs 500grand now. But, understanding that buffing the monetary gains from fighting would in all likeliness destabilize other types of playing, i asked about a different solution.


God damn you waystation people. You said it yourself that when you planted your first colony you had like 6kk in a bank, witch basically means that you were half way into the lategame... How many more of you will strawman me over those god damn waystations. Im sorry! you hear! im so sorry! boooo!
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Yunru

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2019, 09:23:17 AM »

And if i wanted the game to be more to my, subjective liking, i would ask for more boobs.
No! We are not going Darling in the Franxxx!

Q8

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2019, 09:35:15 AM »

Jesus Christ, my daughter looks older than that.
god damn weebs ruining them internets again, GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2019, 11:15:18 AM »

I don't see why colonies should be easily created in the early/mid game. What wrong with certain parts of the game requiring more investment/time to achieve than others? Pricing seems fine to me. You have to wait to make a colony until you can support it, or accept that it will grow very slowly since you don't have enough money. You can build basic defenses and farming quite inexpensively, but you can't build the best defenses and grow you colony quickly until you have more money.

I personally feel like it would be very boring to have to go looking for materials to make buildings, but I can accept that other people don't feel the same way. It could be interesting, but it seems like a mechanic that would tend towards busywork rather than engaging gameplay.
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Q8

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2019, 12:33:06 PM »

I don't see why colonies should be easily created in the early/mid game. What wrong with certain parts of the game requiring more investment/time to achieve than others?
Neither do I.
And I never asked for it.
I suggested, that it would be... "fun", at least for some, i would imagine, if you COULD replace part of that price, with materials, witch would sometimes make it, if you took your time to think it through, and buy in places where its cheap, cheaper.  But if you failed, it could end up being even more expensive, since buying in deficit economy may be even twice the price.
I never said i wanted the game to become easier, far from it, quite the opposite actually. Since to think such a purchase thru, you would have to not only look wheres cheap, but also think about fuel, supplys, transport capability and how far you have to go. And even if u tough that thru, you could just bump into a pirate, and lose everything. Do u want to tell me that that would be "easier", than just paying the price in cosmo-dolars?

I personally feel like it would be very boring to have to go looking for materials[...]. It could be interesting, but it seems like a mechanic that would tend towards busywork rather than engaging gameplay.
I dont know what to tell you man. I guess i would have to ask for your definition of "engaging gameplay" first.
...Maybe Ill try alittle tongue and cheek action and tell you, to go and tell that quote to the guy that programed the economy. Because somebody did. All those materials, and trade routs, and deficit/surplus state, and amounts, and production, and needs, and prices, and ***. And all that for you to say that engaging with that economy in any way, even on the side, skipable, is "very boring busywork rather than engaging gameplay"!
But listen, i dont know, maybe i am crazy. And thats why im so unsure... Look, i actually agreed with Alex few posts up, that he is probably right. Or atleast its not worth the hassle...
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2019, 04:30:00 PM »

I personally feel like it would be very boring to have to go looking for materials[...]. It could be interesting, but it seems like a mechanic that would tend towards busywork rather than engaging gameplay.
I dont know what to tell you man. I guess i would have to ask for your definition of "engaging gameplay" first.
...Maybe Ill try alittle tongue and cheek action and tell you, to go and tell that quote to the guy that programed the economy. Because somebody did. All those materials, and trade routs, and deficit/surplus state, and amounts, and production, and needs, and prices, and ***. And all that for you to say that engaging with that economy in any way, even on the side, skipable, is "very boring busywork rather than engaging gameplay"!
But listen, i dont know, maybe i am crazy. And thats why im so unsure... Look, i actually agreed with Alex few posts up, that he is probably right. Or atleast its not worth the hassle...

My experience with the economy is that you can easily look up the prices to find the cheapest source, so the gameplay in my mind becomes something like this:
- Open the tooltip with prices and pick the cheapest option
- fly there
- check to make sure it is still cheap and then buy what you need
- If you do not have enough or the price have changed a lot (which is rare IMO), repeat

If very large amounts of resources are required, then that might require many trips, but none of those trips are any different than the others, so it's just doing the same simple task over and over, hence busywork. Nothing there required me to really think or do anything skillful. I just looked up some numbers and then went to a planet and clicked buy. Maybe you have a different idea of what this would be like, but that is what I imagine given how things work right now. I guess I would say that the ways to make money (fighting bounties, exploring, smuggling, raiding) are all much more fun to me so I would rather just do that.

The interesting aspect of the economy for me is how I can manipulate it to reduce or increase prices or increase the market share of my colony. Those things seem more engaging to me than just trying to buy some cheap resources.

As to pirates, I always make sure my fleet is strong enough to handle raids before starting a colony, so nothing flying around in the open world is really threatening at all by the time I start a colony. I wouldn't mind if that changed, but that's currently how it is in my experience. I also tend to fight a lot bounties so my fleets are pretty combat focused.

Also, supply/fuel management (which I do enjoy) is a part of doing literally anything in the game including every way of making money, so the fact that you have have to manage fuel and supplies while looking for resources to buy doesn't add anything to the experience for me. I would have to do that no matter what I did. I don't think trade offs between distance and price would be relevant either. You might spend a few hundred extra fuel and supplies to go further but that might cost like 5-10k compared to the 400k you're spending on resources and the 200k income you're getting from your colony. I just don't see that being super relevant, or something that's worth min-maxing. The fun part of resource management for me is when I'm out in the middle of nowhere and running low on supplies trying to work out how risky it is to explore that last system before heading home. Min-maxing minor supply costs on shopping trips is not very interesting to me (again my opinion).

If it's optional, then I don't care but I really don't want to be forced to do that, and it doesn't seem to me like it adds a lot, so I'd rather see the dev focus on big stuff like end game content. That's just my opinion though, I'm happy to hear others opinions. The general idea is sort of interesting, I just don't see it being engaging in actual gameplay.
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Q8

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2019, 07:16:17 PM »

Listen, this discussion aint gonna work, because all you do, is strawman the *** out of me, on every turn. Even forget the fact, that this whole 'resources for buildings' idea wasnt really the subject of the topic, but just an example that i conjured on the spot for no particular reason. Its not even that good of an example to be honest, and i stated that even before you wrote your first piece.

...Ouh how boring that would be, how repetitive, how tiresome. Just numbers. Nothing fun, especially compared to blowing stuff up. And now youre even afraid that it would eat the dev time that should be spent on "big stuff", like more blowing *** up i assume.
And thats just a bunch of crap.
Nothing would eat no devtime, since everything is already made. Stockpiles already use up the resources that are put in them, so all it would take, is to write few sentences of code that checks for given resource in the stockpiles, and if it is there, then take it, and if it is not there, then take the cash.
Instead of being boring, it would even save you from few boring parts of the game, coz it would make use of the "trash" you bring home from any expedition. You know, 100 of this, and 200 of that. Trash, that you couldnt be bothered to go someplace and sell, so it just end up laying in the storage forever. And after that, you could just dump it in the stockpiles, and be proud of yourslef, that you maybe saved few k's on a building.
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SCC

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Re: Pricing on buldings
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2019, 05:51:29 AM »

Here's the biggest issue with resources making buildings cheaper: most of resources are redundant. You can't reliably find any given resource through exploration or piracy (except for supplies, fuel, metals and heavy machinery), so unless you stockpile them just in case, your only reliable source is just buying them on the market. Having different buildings require food, domestic goods, luxury goods, volatiles or transplutonics still involve the same activity: going shopping. More over, resources you can gain from exploration still can be bought, so they aren't any different. In general resources are currently handled in a very messy way, but that's a topic deserving its own thread...
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