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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(  (Read 16612 times)

Grievous69

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2019, 12:12:17 PM »

A bit more visible (and/or audio) warning for too much fuel/cargo would be nice. The amount could be displayed in red when over the limit for example as it's pretty much impossible to tell whether you are tiny bit over or under the maximum from just the visual presentation.
There is red text that pops up in those cases? Anyways those who don't pay attention won't even notice the red bar you suggested.
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mvp7

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2019, 12:22:05 PM »

A bit more visible (and/or audio) warning for too much fuel/cargo would be nice. The amount could be displayed in red when over the limit for example as it's pretty much impossible to tell whether you are tiny bit over or under the maximum from just the visual presentation.
There is red text that pops up in those cases? Anyways those who don't pay attention won't even notice the red bar you suggested.
The text is what usually catches my attention in the end but it only shows up some time after you have left salvage screen for example.

When the cargo/fuel indicator is near maximum there's no color to be seen so when I'm quickly control-clicking stuff into my inventory I need to compare the two numbers to make sure I'm no over limit. If the number turned red it would be much easier to notice at glance.
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CommandoDude

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2019, 12:44:11 PM »

Event Horizon aka jumping right into a black hole already gives a noise.

Maybe copy that noise and put it up for every other hazard? Its a nice "oh ***" sound, after all.

That was the first time I ever knew about it actually was doing exactly this.

Not only an oh *** sound, but an oh *** moment as I desperately tried to burn away from imminent doom.
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scrye

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2019, 02:26:15 PM »

@Alex;  I personally found Starsector's fairly challenging economic profile (at the start of the game anyway) made it more challenging in an interesting way.  Since your supplies and fuel are always ticking down, it strongly encourages you to figure out a stable income stream, and keeps the pressure on in a way that drives gameplay and decision-making.  I believe it is a bit intense at start, but not problematically so as you learn the mechanics and the economy.  In fact, the game can almost become a bit too easy/slow-paced later, when your income starts drastically exceeding your costs (basically, as soon as your colony is up and running in the black) and you have more money coming in than you have things to do with it.

That said, I do agree that more alerts/notifications related to supply management are definitely warranted.  The big one that gets me too often is large, unnoticed spikes in supply consumption - for post-battle repairs or due to star corona impact.  These jumps can happen so quickly and silently that I don't even realize I'm about to run out until it's too late; an alert for when supply consumption rates exceed some relative threshold, or when ship repairs/CR recovery are actively taking place, or when supplies get below some minimum baseline reserve, would be incredibly useful.  I would want some form of all the above.

I know there are some visual cues for some of these kinds of situations (and the "in a corona" audio SFX is there, but while it adds ambiance, I want another sound added as an alert, since by itself it's not that attention-grabbing), but audio cues would add a lot of value, and the alerts don't always cover the situations that are actually the most dangerous to your fleet.  Running out of supplies is incredibly dangerous and crippling, vastly moreso than running out of fuel (since you can wait for more fuel if you have supplies to hold out, but NOT the other way around!), and usually requires a highly focused emergency response from the player to avert disaster (hull damage, lost ships, lost cargo, increased combat risk, etc); so it should be very clear when a supply burnout is at risk of happening.  It can easily mean the end of a run, if you're unlucky.

I could say some similar things about low fuel awareness and notifications, but supply consumption awareness is definitely the bigger problem.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 02:38:28 PM by scrye »
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bobucles

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2019, 04:01:57 AM »

I don't think that anyone mentioned there are TWO major types of supply consumption
- Regular upkeep, expressed in the ship profile as supplies/mo
- Repairs/retrofits/combat, expressed as the ship's CR.

When you run out of supplies in deep space, ships no longer get their regular upkeep and their combat rating starts to decay. That incurs a supply debt, not only does the ship STILL bill you for its maintenance, but you pay extra supplies for not providing them on schedule.

There are other operational expenses that may not be immediately obvious. Every unit of fuel that your ships burn costs money, 1 fuel/ly will cost about $1500/month at maximum hyperspace speed(of course you don't spend all month in hyperspace). Crew cost $10/month upkeep, so take the total fleet crew and multiply by 10. Monthly supplies are actually one of the cheaper expenses, multiply this value by $100 to get a rough estimate. Each individual expense might be workable, but put together they add up into a much larger price tag that players might not be aware of.

So let's take the Wayfarer combat freighter, which is one of the starting ships. Its upkeep costs are 1 fuel, 5 supply and 50 crew.  Set aside 1 * 1500 + 5*100 + 50*10 => ~$2500 monthly upkeep to use the ship. The recovery cost adds an extra $500 every time it goes into combat as well. If there's a supply shortage or if you suffer tariffs the operational costs are even higher. Getting ripped off on supplies can cost $1000/month, while a fuel shortage + tariff can cost $3500/month in fuel alone! Ouch.

It'd be nice for fuel and supply expenses to be expressed on the income screen. It'd give players a better idea of their own financial situation.

Mar Sara

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2019, 08:22:03 PM »

If you run out of supplies when far from a market, and are facing running out of cr, even with repairs suspended, it's time to mothball all ships, jettison your cargo, and limp back to friendly space on essentially minimal systems. You'll be wide open to attack, and slowly whittled down your hulls from any storms on the way, but that's better than basically starving to death if your planning has gon so badly wrong. Personally, I think even mothballed ships should suffer hull damage slowly when there's 0 supply. we're getting off lightly with only loosing cargo.
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Take7heDoor

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2019, 01:55:02 AM »

A few times in my playthrough I was just glad that crew can't bail on me until I hit a port. Bet they wished I had escape pods on my ships.

Jokes on them though, there's always more suckers to sign onto the Death Train!
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Yunru

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2019, 02:26:12 AM »

A few times in my playthrough I was just glad that crew can't bail on me until I hit a port. Bet they wished I had escape pods on my ships.

Jokes on them though, there's always more suckers to sign onto the Death Train!
So any colony bills like taking resources out of a colony stockpile come out all at once when you complete the tutorial. As such my crew spent over a year in orbit around a planet, but unable to leave as I never landed, without getting paid :P

Yunru

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2019, 10:46:13 AM »

If you run out of supplies when far from a market, and are facing running out of cr, even with repairs suspended, it's time to mothball all ships, jettison your cargo, and limp back to friendly space on essentially minimal systems. You'll be wide open to attack, and slowly whittled down your hulls from any storms on the way, but that's better than basically starving to death if your planning has gon so badly wrong. Personally, I think even mothballed ships should suffer hull damage slowly when there's 0 supply. we're getting off lightly with only loosing cargo.
You're a fool if you jettison your cargo.
Being over the limit is really bad, it ups your supply consumption.
...
Except you're out of supplies already, so what exactly is it costing you?
(The answer is movement speed, but there's a formulae for that which I haven't worked out yet)

Shogoki

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2019, 10:24:01 AM »

I think he means you need to mothball and jettison cargo BEFORE going out of supplies. If you have around 50 / 60 left, you can drop from 10 Supplies per day to 1 or 2 by mothballing everything
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Hrothgar

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2019, 10:38:23 AM »

There are always text displays that you have too much fuel/stuff/men/Krakens on board and you use additional supplies. Also in inventory mode you see if any of this three parts of your fleet equipment is over limit.
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Paul_Kauphart

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2019, 01:40:56 AM »

I think he means you need to mothball and jettison cargo BEFORE going out of supplies. If you have around 50 / 60 left, you can drop from 10 Supplies per day to 1 or 2 by mothballing everything

That means you also have to jettison your crew...
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Goumindong

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2019, 02:26:29 AM »

They knew the risks when they signed up!
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Yunru

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2019, 04:55:23 AM »

My point was if you mothball literally everything, then your upkeep is 0 no matter how overburdened you are.
So why waste fuel or crew by jettisoning it?
(Or supplies, since some of them might make it back, and if they don't they weren't going to if you jettisoned them either.)

bobucles

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Re: Supply consumption is ridiculous and unfun:(
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2019, 05:04:55 AM »

Quote
My point was if you mothball literally everything, then your upkeep is 0 no matter how overburdened you are.
That sounds more like an exploit than anything else. If all your ships are mothballed it means you're dead in the water.

Do mothball ships malfunction and break down? If they're running their engines without a single crew that would be a real possibility, but if they're just empty husks getting towed it's a different story.
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