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Author Topic: Should Deployment Points be split equally?  (Read 2289 times)

Plantissue

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Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« on: September 03, 2019, 04:21:07 AM »

Currently, the initial deployment points is proportional to the deployment points both fleets have. The maximum proportion is 50% more than the minimum proportion, so for 300 deployment points it is 120 and 180 respectively. For 500, it would be 200 and 300.

Many new players (and old!) do not understand this system. Though it can be argued that it might make common sense that a bigger fleet can deploy more, it doesn't make sense that the amount deployed is limited to a nominal value at the same time.

A bigger fleet is an advantage all in itself without having to skew it in the bigger fleet's favour by making the bigger fleet able to deploy more. Splitting the deployment points equally, so both sides are limited to the same amount should make the battle flow more nicely and prevent the problem of having more ships in the fleet that may never get used, just to gain the advantage, or not be given the disadvantage of different deployment points.

If both sides happen to be under the deployment limit, then both sides can obviously deploy as much as they can. This is not much different to the current system and shouldn't be a problem. If both sides are over then both being limited to a set amount of deployment points shouldn't be a problem as well. The only game mechanic lost is the possibility that a large fleet full of deployment point inefficient ships will have less of an advantage over smaller fleets, but the player is generally disincentived towards building such fleets anyhow.

As a side effect it will always be obvious why your fleet is too large to disengage from an unwanted battle, another commonly asked question.
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Innominandum

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2019, 04:50:15 AM »

Should be kept as is, the reinforcement gain per ship disabled in combat on the other hand could use some adjustments.
To clarify:
Imagine this scenario you start out with 200 FP the enemy fleet with 300, though in the ensuing battle you reduce the enemy force in size so that you end up with a 1:1 ratio in fleet sizes. Now one could assume that you would gain those Deployment points, which you couldn't use as the initial deployment screen, gradually back as RP ... but you don't.     
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Plantissue

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2019, 05:14:04 AM »

You do gain those deployment points back as the enemy fleet depletes.

Wouldn't it be nice if the system was clear and you wouldn't be mistaken about how it works? Yet another reason for equal deployment points.
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SCC

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2019, 05:22:01 AM »

Big issue is that bigger fleets would no longer have an advantage. Fighting one big fleet is much harder than fighting a small one with reinforcements. In the second case, unless you defeat the initial win by the skin of your teeth, those reinforcements are much less dangerous, since they can't help the initial wave immediately (they have to crawl to the frontline first, meaning that the enemy temporarily effectively has fewer DPs) and are vulnerable to getting intercepted on the way. The system should be explained somewhere in the game (perhaps in the reinforcement screen), but it would make all the situations where you are outnumbered easier.
Quote
Imagine this scenario you start out with 200 FP the enemy fleet with 300, though in the ensuing battle you reduce the enemy force in size so that you end up with a 1:1 ratio in fleet sizes. Now one could assume that you would gain those Deployment points, which you couldn't use as the initial deployment screen, gradually back as RP ... but you don't.
Deployment point share is calculated in real time for quite a few updates by now. This sounds like a bug, or you losing some ships without noticing.

Innominandum

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2019, 05:36:06 AM »

Quote
Imagine this scenario you start out with 200 FP the enemy fleet with 300, though in the ensuing battle you reduce the enemy force in size so that you end up with a 1:1 ratio in fleet sizes. Now one could assume that you would gain those Deployment points, which you couldn't use as the initial deployment screen, gradually back as RP ... but you don't.

Deployment point share is calculated in real time for quite a few updates by now. This sounds like a bug, or you losing some ships without noticing.
Makes sense, your right there the only time i tend to venture into such battles is in the defense of friendly orbital stations, my observation is flawed, i didn't take the losses of ai-friendlies into account. 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 05:42:09 AM by Hastur »
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Plantissue

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2019, 05:48:04 AM »

Big issue is that bigger fleets would no longer have an advantage. Fighting one big fleet is much harder than fighting a small one with reinforcements. In the second case, unless you defeat the initial win by the skin of your teeth, those reinforcements are much less dangerous, since they can't help the initial wave immediately (they have to crawl to the frontline first, meaning that the enemy temporarily effectively has fewer DPs) and are vulnerable to getting intercepted on the way. The system should be explained somewhere in the game (perhaps in the reinforcement screen), but it would make all the situations where you are outnumbered easier.

The bigger fleet will always have an advantage over a smaller fleet by purely having reserves that the smaller fleet does not, if deployment points are equal and both are over their deployment points. No problem there. The bigger fleet reinforcements has to crawl to the frontlines, so do the smaller fleet reinforcements, so what is the problem? Why are you operating under the assumption that you don't lose a single ship? Equal deployment points preventing an initial cascading success problem is the point.
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SCC

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2019, 06:10:00 AM »

The bigger fleet will always have an advantage over a smaller fleet by purely having reserves that the smaller fleet does not
And deployment points are one of those resources. One of the most important ones, in fact, since ships outside the battlefield don't contribute in any way.
The bigger fleet reinforcements has to crawl to the frontlines, so do the smaller fleet reinforcements, so what is the problem? Why are you operating under the assumption that you don't lose a single ship? Equal deployment points preventing an initial cascading success problem is the point.
This happens very often to me, when I'm outnumbered. And you ask for disadvantaging the enemy further.
I lose ships from time to time, but those aren't very meaningful events. If I'm being pushed back, then my reinforcements take less time to arrive to the battlefield. If I gain advantage, then the enemy doesn't retreat towards the top and regroup, instead trying to make reinforcements come to the initial wave. This leaves both forces overextended and an easy setup for defeat in detail.
I think you are overlooking the difference between fighting one big wave and several smaller ones. In the former case, you have to defeat them all at once, while in the latter, you can either defeat the smaller initial wave quickly, where you have more ships proportionally, then move to the reinforcements, maintaining local superiority, despite being outnumbered; or you can encircle or distract the initial wave, then slowly chip at both the main force and the reinforcements (where the main force has some chance at defeating you, but reinforcements are completely hopeless).

Sinosauropteryx

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2019, 08:02:21 AM »

This change would strongly advantage the player over the AI, because player fleets with even half-assed optimized loadouts are always superior to the same size of AI fleet. So even if the AI fleet is twice the player's size, the battlefield will always contain X DP of optimized ships vs X DP of unoptimized ships - advantage to player. But it would also make battles take much longer, as a larger player fleet could no longer quickly rout a smaller AI by fielding overwhelming firepower. Both scenarios boil down to slow sparring matches that the player is almost guaranteed to win.

Overall result: Easier game, longer battles, less challenge, more slog. Keep it as is.
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Alex

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2019, 08:14:47 AM »

The system should be explained somewhere in the game (perhaps in the reinforcement screen)

(There is a tooltip over the deployment points bad in the deployment dialog, btw, though that's a fairly recent addition, and I'm not sure how many people thing to hover over it...)
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Plantissue

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2019, 09:20:32 AM »

The bigger fleet will always have an advantage over a smaller fleet by purely having reserves that the smaller fleet does not
And deployment points are one of those resources. One of the most important ones, in fact, since ships outside the battlefield don't contribute in any way.
The bigger fleet reinforcements has to crawl to the frontlines, so do the smaller fleet reinforcements, so what is the problem? Why are you operating under the assumption that you don't lose a single ship? Equal deployment points preventing an initial cascading success problem is the point.
This happens very often to me, when I'm outnumbered. And you ask for disadvantaging the enemy further.
I lose ships from time to time, but those aren't very meaningful events. If I'm being pushed back, then my reinforcements take less time to arrive to the battlefield. If I gain advantage, then the enemy doesn't retreat towards the top and regroup, instead trying to make reinforcements come to the initial wave. This leaves both forces overextended and an easy setup for defeat in detail.
I think you are overlooking the difference between fighting one big wave and several smaller ones. In the former case, you have to defeat them all at once, while in the latter, you can either defeat the smaller initial wave quickly, where you have more ships proportionally, then move to the reinforcements, maintaining local superiority, despite being outnumbered; or you can encircle or distract the initial wave, then slowly chip at both the main force and the reinforcements (where the main force has some chance at defeating you, but reinforcements are completely hopeless).
I view the second scenario a much more positive scenario in terms of simplicity, sense and gameplay. As it is, Alex seems to express no interest in the suggestion, so I'll forget about it.
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Alex

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2019, 09:34:36 AM »

Sorry I didn't respond to the suggestion directly, btw - a bit rushed and this came up a few times before.

For me, this boils down to this: if DP are split evenly, then the player is basically never going to be outnumbered on the battlefield in the lategame, unless they're already starting to lose badly. That reduces both variety and challenge.

To expand on the latter, an even number of deployments points for the AI and for the player is anything but even in terms of actual effectiveness; a decently put together player fleet will utterly dominate in those conditions. So many factors combine to give the player a huge edge there - ship loadouts, purpose-built officers, personally piloting the flagship, giving the right orders...
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Plantissue

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2019, 09:55:41 AM »

Thanks ffor the reply. The player will never going to be outnumbered on the battlefield in the lategame if the player chooses it, except perhaps if the player decided to join in the fun against 5 expedition fleets. Even then at least the player gets a battlestation to help. In most cases the current DP ratio splitting favours the player up till then. Is it too bad a thing if deployment points being equal, the player has an advantage? I'm sure most people get a sense of satisfaction with better loadouts and officers, though it can be argued that it vastly would feel better to win from being outnumbered.
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Alex

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2019, 10:13:43 AM »

I mean, the player is (generally) never going to want to fight a fight they don't want. How well they can do avoiding it is another question; I doubt it's 100%.

But what having varying DP levels does it provide a wider range of challenge to possible encounters. It takes something like "5 Ordos closing in on me" from "possibly an actual threat" to "whatever". If DP are even, then as it stands, the point where nothing whatsoever presents any challenge and is basically the same gets moved down a whole lot.

To build on that same example, as it is - to some hypothetical player fleet - 2 Ordos may be an even fight, while 5 Ordos would be serious trouble or at least a tough fight. This is good - it gives you reasons to maneuver around in the campaign, and more room/incentive for your fleet to improve.

If DPs are even, then the difference between 2 and 5 Ordos in this hypothetical scenario would likely just be a much longer mop-up phase. Or, possibly, a loss by CR exhaustion, but that also seems worse than just losing a more exciting fight in short order.
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Plantissue

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2019, 10:43:30 AM »

I admit, the player always choosing to fight may be a bit of an overstatement. I can see the point of when facing multiple large fleets, you would want the player to be outnumbered and worried. What do you think of a system that is the same as having equal deployment points, except when facing more fleets, that opposing side will simply get + half deployment points per extra fleet? I suppose that would be too similar to the current system, whilst losing granularity.
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Alex

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Re: Should Deployment Points be split equally?
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2019, 11:05:47 AM »

Hmm - I'm not quite sure what you mean by "+ half deployment points".

(One thing worth mentioning, in case it's relevant: the total ought to add up to the battle size setting; part of the reason that's there is for performance, so larger battles resulting in more total DP wouldn't be good.)
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