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Author Topic: Ship costs and availability  (Read 16775 times)

Megas

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2019, 04:41:54 PM »

Buying ships is something to do before player can build whatever he wants.  (I do not buy very many ships, I use mostly salvage and bear with (D) mods until I can build pristine ships reliably.)

Late in the game, building ships with your own Heavy Industry is probably the standard to go by.  Not only it is cheaper than all other options, you get free stuff to go with your ship (weapons, fuel, supplies, crew).  The only disadvantage is time to wait, and even that can be bypassed by ordering near the end of the month, provided cost does not exceed production capacity.
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Locklave

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2019, 04:49:53 PM »

D-mod ships would be pointless if it were cheaper because you would almost always restore them. They're never desirable, making it cheaper to restore wouldn't change that. Once you have enough money you would just restore them all instead of buying new ships, it's literally the same.

Also, if you fight many battles you will almost certainly see enough ships to get what you want, and often, there are many copies of the same ship so your odds of seeing it are quite good. I have seen many more apogees in post battle salvage than I have in stores. The selection is usually better from salvage tbh, except that they all have d-mods.

D mods can be desirable, with the related skills for them and the right D mods they are much cheaper to maintain with little loss. The Devs want D mods to be used. Cargo Storage damaged on a Scavenging Ship for example.

Being 100% clear I'm not suggesting repairing a ship with 5+ D mods should be less then a new ship. But what about 1-2 D mods. We aren't exactly finding tons of Apogees (wish I was lol) floating around post battle with 1-2 D mods, usually it's 3+ making it worthless.

Do you mean blanket any restore, even for just 1 D mod, should be like buying a new ship or do you mean many D mod?
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2019, 05:13:31 PM »

D mods can be desirable, with the related skills for them and the right D mods they are much cheaper to maintain with little loss. The Devs want D mods to be used. Cargo Storage damaged on a Scavenging Ship for example.

Being 100% clear I'm not suggesting repairing a ship with 5+ D mods should be less then a new ship. But what about 1-2 D mods. We aren't exactly finding tons of Apogees (wish I was lol) floating around post battle with 1-2 D mods, usually it's 3+ making it worthless.

Do you mean blanket any restore, even for just 1 D mod, should be like buying a new ship or do you mean many D mod?

I'll admit there are some specific combinations of 1-2 mods on certain ships that are acceptable, but I would say for 90%+ of the ships I see with dmods, I would happily pay the cost of a pristine ship to restore them. I guess I would be ok with ships with 1 dmod starting at pristine cost to restore instead of 120% like it is now, but if it were cheaper or even comparable to pristine ship to restore a 2+dmod ship, I would never buy a ship ever again.
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TrashMan

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2019, 02:41:39 PM »

Can you for the love of god stop comparing real life stuff with a *** GAME set in a fictional universe, I don't get this massive hard-on for realism just to make the gameplay annoying for it. And now I actually remember some of your older posts/comment TrashMan, I'd advise everyone who wants to keep their sanity, stay away from this thread, or at least skip some of the comments.

So, you are the only one who gets to define what is good gameplay, right?
Seems like even discussing it triggers you to no end. If your sanity is so fragile, then I DO recommend you stay away from this thread. Perhaps a room with pillows and puppies will be to your liking?
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Tackywheat1

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2019, 02:48:01 PM »

D-mod ships would be pointless if it were cheaper because you would almost always restore them. They're never desirable, making it cheaper to restore wouldn't change that. Once you have enough money you would just restore them all instead of buying new ships, it's literally the same.

Also, if you fight many battles you will almost certainly see enough ships to get what you want, and often, there are many copies of the same ship so your odds of seeing it are quite good. I have seen many more apogees in post battle salvage than I have in stores. The selection is usually better from salvage tbh, except that they all have d-mods.

D mods can be desirable, with the related skills for them and the right D mods they are much cheaper to maintain with little loss. The Devs want D mods to be used. Cargo Storage damaged on a Scavenging Ship for example.

Being 100% clear I'm not suggesting repairing a ship with 5+ D mods should be less then a new ship. But what about 1-2 D mods. We aren't exactly finding tons of Apogees (wish I was lol) floating around post battle with 1-2 D mods, usually it's 3+ making it worthless.

Do you mean blanket any restore, even for just 1 D mod, should be like buying a new ship or do you mean many D mod?

You can get Apogee BP from high tech ship package (I can make as many as I want :D)
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TrashMan

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2019, 02:59:44 PM »

Arguments should be made using gameplay and to some extent lore reasons, not tenuous equivalencies to earth.

Rational human behavior is the only reason I need.



blueprints are rare and heavily guarded. Not everyone can make them
What in the the name are you talking about? Blueprints are everywhere.

You mean the blueprints that can only be aquired by finding them in abandoned bases or by stealing them?
You have a strange definition of everywhere.
Doesn't the lore state that blueprint chips cannot be copied, and every single one is priceless?


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You seem to think this game takes place on Earth. It doesn't. Which military is tracking which ships? How many times have powers risen and fallen, who's checking ship ID's and keeping track of owners, who's stopping CIVILIANS LIKE THE PLAYER from building colonies, and how is it difficult to imagine other colonies started by other PRIVATE people. Whatever it takes to build a ship, the resources are there and NO ONE is stopping anyone from building anything.

The player can do whatever because he is the player.
A fictional universe doesn't have to make any sense, as you said. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to make it like that, and I honestly think the devs dropped the ball on this one. There are ways for the player to have ships that makes more sense (licences).
It's not that hard to track ships - unique ID, can only be produced on specific places and any ship coming in or out is tracked. Hell, there are FAR more cars in s a tiny country than there are starships in the entire Sector, and all can be tracked.

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Says who? I can't think of one military produced weapon/ship where there were more destroyed in war then what remained. 1000's of fighters were lost in world wars, and there we're many times more waiting to be deployed. The war didn't wipe out the entire stock.

Stop and think for a bit. They are produced because they are being destroyed and there is demand for more even if they weren't. Demand that must be met. Every single ship and tank produced in WW2 had a serial number. Every single one was shipped to a specific place.
If the government found you in possession of a ww2 tank, they would require proof of purchase and license to hold it in the first place.

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I think you imagine it was just business as usual after the gates shut down. It would have been chaos, not the place where orderly ship registrations take place. LOL. Resources / blueprints / ships / entire planets would have been up for grabs. Things changing hands over 200 cycles. Think about it, how would any sort of accurate records ever survive that turmoil and time scale. Who's enforcing laws that don't even exist?

There's always hose in power. The gates shutting down didn't remove all registries or ID's (which are created by the forges), nor does it prevent making new registries.

What's stopping the Hegemony from cataloging every ship that docks at one of their planets? What's stopping them from taking it if you don't have a license for it?
The law doesn't exist for it's own sake. Anyone in power will WANT to keep tight control over dangerous things like starships.


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No, just super-freighters... so far. But your point is moot anyways since they would happily capture one if given the opportunity - which they would have in a galactic war.

Yes, and they would be blown up the second they appear in civilized space. You CAN theoretically capture or salvage one. Bu that doesn't mean you get to keep it when others find out you have it, and you bloody well can't hide it when you fly to the planet in it.
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TrashMan

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2019, 03:02:11 PM »

Uh if by "the military" you're thinking of the Hegemony... XIV Battlegroup - the guys who became the Hegemony - arrived in the sector only 50 years or so after the Collapse. They were set to replace another battlegroup that had already left the Persean Sector and the gates collapsed on them mid-travel and they ended up a few lightyears away from their destination.

Add to that that they lost or had to scrap most of their fleet during the travel before they were able to make it there, that the people of the Persean sector had started to organize, recover and even start waging war on each other and that Tri-Tachion was surprisingly ready when the Collapse happened and you don't really get the "US military in a third world backwater" situation you're imagining.

They're certainly powerful and I agree it is a bit weird they would let warships and weaponry be sold on the open market in their territory when it is supposedly illegal to do so but they're not "the military" that everybody else recognise as the rightfull autority in the sector. They can't fully enforce their diktat of Hegemony in the systems they nominaly control, can't deal with a splinter group that pretend to be the real, legitimate Hegemony and can't crush Tri-Tachion after having waged two wars against them.
I don't think they're at the point where they regulate ship IDs and specifications sector-wide just yet. If you read the description of the Valkyrie troop-transport you learn that they tried to restrict that hull and miserably failed at it. (Yeah, somehow the first thing they tried to ban was a ground landing crafts, not the battlecruisers or carriers. Though it makes sense considering how important it is to keep your blueprints and infrastructure safe.)

Sector-wide? They don't have to. Only in their own controlled space. Just like Tri-tach would try to control it in their own space. And the Sindarian Diktat in their own.
It's a matter of power and control that ANY governing body has to deal with.

Hell, Heavy Weapons are illegal and a ship is something that is damn near impossible to smuggle or hide.
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TrashMan

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2019, 03:03:43 PM »

Restoring ships is significantly more expensive than buying them pristine and it is meant to be. Otherwise, there would be no reason to ever buy ships and d-mod ships would also probably get upgraded at the first opportunity every time.

Increasing ship costs solves all the problems.
It's still cheaper to salvage than it is to buy when a ship costs 1 million. And the restoration seems a lot cheaper when the difference of 10000 becomes 100000 or more.
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TrashMan

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2019, 03:12:50 PM »

I would not buy any ships ever if it were cheaper to restore them. I am already fighting all the time because I mostly do bounties, so I would not even have to go out of my way, and I already pass on many hundreds of ships in salvage. If you fight lots of bounties, the ship selection would actually be better than going to markets and trying to find stuff. It would be way too easy.

You could fight 100 battles and not find the ship you're looking for. I know I haven't run into some ships as salvage yet, and I've been playing for a long time. Simply put, buying a ship means oyu get it RIGH NOW, no dice roll and it is immediately in fighting condition.

Salvaging requires you to find it, hope the RNG jesus gives you one, then hope he smiles on your some more for few D-mods, then tug it back home (fuel and supplies cost money, which many people forget)
Restoration should scale with D-mods so that it might be profitable or it might not.
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Tackywheat1

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2019, 03:27:14 PM »

Ships on market do have d-mods.
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Plantissue

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2019, 03:40:34 PM »

My goodness, is it really neccessary to spam 4 posts in the same thread.

All of which is where you are trying to rudely force your own personal interpretation of reality.

It might be your name, but you have no reason to live up to it and be trashy.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2019, 04:02:22 PM »

I would not buy any ships ever if it were cheaper to restore them. I am already fighting all the time because I mostly do bounties, so I would not even have to go out of my way, and I already pass on many hundreds of ships in salvage. If you fight lots of bounties, the ship selection would actually be better than going to markets and trying to find stuff. It would be way too easy.

You could fight 100 battles and not find the ship you're looking for. I know I haven't run into some ships as salvage yet, and I've been playing for a long time. Simply put, buying a ship means oyu get it RIGH NOW, no dice roll and it is immediately in fighting condition.

Salvaging requires you to find it, hope the RNG jesus gives you one, then hope he smiles on your some more for few D-mods, then tug it back home (fuel and supplies cost money, which many people forget)
Restoration should scale with D-mods so that it might be profitable or it might not.

Buying requires ships appearing in a store which is equally rng. My experience is that capital ships and cruisers appear more frequently in bounties than in stores for most ships, particularly low and mid tech since hegemony and persian league give the majority of bounties. The main exceptions are some high tech warships because TT has a carrier focus, but TT also has very few military markets, so you never see them in stores either. My best luck with high tech warships has been to find blueprints (or play with the mod that adds prism freeport lol). If the ship is in the fleet, then I find I have a very good shot at getting it in salvage. I think the algorithm is weighted towards bigger ships or something. I can pretty much get any low or mid tech capital/cruiser within one or two bounties. If it were cheaper to restore than to buy, I would just make my whole fleet out of those ships and save money in the process. Buying would maybe be useful if you had a TT commission to get some rare high tech ships (and maybe also for tempests since they are somewhat rare in fleets) but other than that, restoring would be the main way to get pristine ships for me, which makes no sense.

I'm fine with how things currently work: buying is the best way to get pristine ships, and salvaging gives you garbage when you are desperate and some rare ships for increased restoration price. If the frequency of seeing salvageable ships went WAY down, I would be ok with restoring being cheaper, but as it stands, It would be totally broken for restoring ships with 3 or more mods to be at all comparable or cheaper than buying since those are the vast majority of the recoverable ships. I would even say that most 2 dmod ships would get immediately restored as well.

Arguments should be made using gameplay and to some extent lore reasons, not tenuous equivalencies to earth.
Rational human behavior is the only reason I need.

If your equivalency between contexts is false, then what is rational in one context is not necessarily rational in another and arguments based on rationality in one context are not valid in the other, hence all the shouting in this thread.
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sotanaht

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2019, 04:17:42 PM »

I would not buy any ships ever if it were cheaper to restore them. I am already fighting all the time because I mostly do bounties, so I would not even have to go out of my way, and I already pass on many hundreds of ships in salvage. If you fight lots of bounties, the ship selection would actually be better than going to markets and trying to find stuff. It would be way too easy.

You could fight 100 battles and not find the ship you're looking for. I know I haven't run into some ships as salvage yet, and I've been playing for a long time. Simply put, buying a ship means oyu get it RIGH NOW, no dice roll and it is immediately in fighting condition.

Salvaging requires you to find it, hope the RNG jesus gives you one, then hope he smiles on your some more for few D-mods, then tug it back home (fuel and supplies cost money, which many people forget)
Restoration should scale with D-mods so that it might be profitable or it might not.

Buying requires ships appearing in a store which is equally rng. My experience is that capital ships and cruisers appear more frequently in bounties than in stores for most ships, particularly low and mid tech since hegemony and persian league give the majority of bounties. The main exceptions are some high tech warships because TT has a carrier focus, but TT also has very few military markets, so you never see them in stores either. My best luck with high tech warships has been to find blueprints (or play with the mod that adds prism freeport lol). If the ship is in the fleet, then I find I have a very good shot at getting it in salvage. I think the algorithm is weighted towards bigger ships or something. I can pretty much get any low or mid tech capital/cruiser within one or two bounties. If it were cheaper to restore than to buy, I would just make my whole fleet out of those ships and save money in the process. Buying would maybe be useful if you had a TT commission to get some rare high tech ships (and maybe also for tempests since they are somewhat rare in fleets) but other than that, restoring would be the main way to get pristine ships for me, which makes no sense.

I'm fine with how things currently work: buying is the best way to get pristine ships, and salvaging gives you garbage when you are desperate and some rare ships for increased restoration price. If the frequency of seeing salvageable ships went WAY down, I would be ok with restoring being cheaper, but as it stands, It would be totally broken for restoring ships with 3 or more mods to be at all comparable or cheaper than buying since those are the vast majority of the recoverable ships. I would even say that most 2 dmod ships would get immediately restored as well.

Arguments should be made using gameplay and to some extent lore reasons, not tenuous equivalencies to earth.
Rational human behavior is the only reason I need.

If your equivalency between contexts is false, then what is rational in one context is not necessarily rational in another and arguments based on rationality in one context are not valid in the other, hence all the shouting in this thread.
Extra work = saving money.  That's how things should be.  If you go out, pray to rngesus to find a fleet with the ship you want, then fight that fleet and pray again for that ship to be salvagable, then drag the useless, 0CR, unarmed ship back to civilization and restore it, why the hell shouldn't you save some money for doing all that?  If you think saving ~20-30% is enough to never buy ships again you are only fooling yourself.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2019, 06:21:57 PM »

Maybe 'never buy ships again' was a little hyperbole, but it would certainly become my primary way of acquiring ships until I got heavy industry. If I am already doing bounties (which I am) then I would have to fly there and back anyway, and the ships would be offered to me anyway. In fact, flying from market to market looking for ships (and praying to RNGsus) is something I would not normally do, so I would argue that is going much further out of my way than doing bounties. Also, 20-30% of a cruiser or capital is a lot of money, definitely a lot more than the fuel and supplies you spend to get it home, plus fighting the bounty already gained me a bunch of money and net positive supplies and fuel if I have taken salvaging skills.
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Sarissofoi

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Re: Ship costs and availability
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2019, 07:38:29 AM »

Other idea is having D-Mods patched/fixed that change D-Mod into weaker patched version.
The Patched version would still give penalty of D-Mod but only 50%.
So with right skill D-Mod would only be 25% potent.
It would be obviously cheaper and enemy ships with D-Mods also should be frequently patched. When ship get blow up - all patched D-Mods get again replaced by unpatched version.
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