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Author Topic: how trading actually works  (Read 17216 times)

Flying Birdy

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2019, 04:05:27 PM »

Seems that trading must be fixed, it's not profitable if you're trading on your own without doing missions.

If you don't care about hurting your rep or making the pirates/LP strong then dealing Drugs/weapons/organs/troops is insanely profitable.

It's not insanely profitable, since i can't even fill my cargo with these stuff and most of markets have around -200 deficit.

Trading not being profitable later game isn't the same as early game. I mean you could turn 30,000 into 1.5 million in about 1 hour doing these kind of trades using several Hounds. Tariffs and the way commodities scale based on number of units is basically broken and gets worse the more cargo you can carry. Small ships (less cost) and limited high end cargo works, run D mods and skill for lower maintenance. If you wanted to make millions per trip then no, not insanely profitable. But if you stay small you can make insane profit, insane relative to your expenses. Everything is relative. Profit being double your costs per trip in insane, you not being able to do that with all your cash every time is another issue entirely.

As far as end game and Super freighters there is no profit to be had. 1000 of anything being sold in any one place is enough to make the product worth less then the original cost, let alone the possibility that you could haul 10,000 cargo.

That's the problem, you don't want to make 1 hour of trips with ilegal cargo, losing rep to make a million, because you didnt spend this time doing bounties or exploration. It's more harder than everything else. Traders have no place in game on their own, just with missions (if you can get one)

I've never personally experienced losing so much rep to make a million, nor have I experienced exploration being faster money than the shortage trading. Even when I got caught smuggling, the only real loss was -5 relations. That relation loss is easily repaired the moment a faction posts a system bounty and I went in and cashed it in.

And trading really is considerably more profitable than exploration if you are exclusively shortage trading. A single trip for 200-300 drugs or weapons nets 100k+ in profit and takes mere minutes to complete, without needing to use up supplies flying out inner core. That said, to reliably trade on shortages, you either need to pay close attention or you will need to be the one that creates the shortage (which is easy enough to do by killing a smuggler).

And before you point out how killing smugglers reduces relations with independents, consider what you actually get from being friendly with independents. The answer is absolutely nothing, except for two awful military markets that you shouldn't care about. As long as you run transponder off, independents will never bother you, ever.

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Megas

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2019, 04:15:37 PM »

Quote
consider what you actually get from being friendly with independents.
Being able to raid New Maxios many times for blueprints (or do other naugthy things that lower rep) without needing to repair reputation.  In that case, their stability is the more important limit instead of reputation if sufficiently reputation is high.
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mxyzptlk

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2019, 04:16:26 PM »

Seems that trading must be fixed, it's not profitable if you're trading on your own without doing missions.

If you don't care about hurting your rep or making the pirates/LP strong then dealing Drugs/weapons/organs/troops is insanely profitable.

It's not insanely profitable, since i can't even fill my cargo with these stuff and most of markets have around -200 deficit.

Trading not being profitable later game isn't the same as early game. I mean you could turn 30,000 into 1.5 million in about 1 hour doing these kind of trades using several Hounds. Tariffs and the way commodities scale based on number of units is basically broken and gets worse the more cargo you can carry. Small ships (less cost) and limited high end cargo works, run D mods and skill for lower maintenance. If you wanted to make millions per trip then no, not insanely profitable. But if you stay small you can make insane profit, insane relative to your expenses. Everything is relative. Profit being double your costs per trip in insane, you not being able to do that with all your cash every time is another issue entirely.

As far as end game and Super freighters there is no profit to be had. 1000 of anything being sold in any one place is enough to make the product worth less then the original cost, let alone the possibility that you could haul 10,000 cargo.

That's the problem, you don't want to make 1 hour of trips with ilegal cargo, losing rep to make a million, because you didnt spend this time doing bounties or exploration. It's more harder than everything else. Traders have no place in game on their own, just with missions (if you can get one)

I've never personally experienced losing so much rep to make a million, nor have I experienced exploration being faster money than the shortage trading. Even when I got caught smuggling, the only real loss was -5 relations. That relation loss is easily repaired the moment a faction posts a system bounty and I went in and cashed it in.

And trading really is considerably more profitable than exploration if you are exclusively shortage trading. A single trip for 200-300 drugs or weapons nets 100k+ in profit and takes mere minutes to complete, without needing to use up supplies flying out inner core. That said, to reliably trade on shortages, you either need to pay close attention or you will need to be the one that creates the shortage (which is easy enough to do by killing a smuggler).

And before you point out how killing smugglers reduces relations with independents, consider what you actually get from being friendly with independents. The answer is absolutely nothing, except for two awful military markets that you shouldn't care about. As long as you run transponder off, independents will never bother you, ever.

If i'm not wrong, attacking Remnants now you get a chance to find a Alpha Core, having the certain perks makes exploring is ALOT more profitable and you can earn around 500k nearing 1m per trip just exploring and getting these stuffs and selling for who pays more with that bonuses of rep and bounty at 200%-300%.

Supply Shortage of course give a nice sum of money, but you must pay attention on invasions and stuff to do this trading right, and ofc... You have a risk, you get that amount of goods and then the market just stabilizes and you lose all your profit.

I mean, really, trading needs a rework and be more "inviting".
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Locklave

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2019, 04:52:02 PM »

Seems that trading must be fixed, it's not profitable if you're trading on your own without doing missions.

If you don't care about hurting your rep or making the pirates/LP strong then dealing Drugs/weapons/organs/troops is insanely profitable.

It's not insanely profitable, since i can't even fill my cargo with these stuff and most of markets have around -200 deficit.

Trading not being profitable later game isn't the same as early game. I mean you could turn 30,000 into 1.5 million in about 1 hour doing these kind of trades using several Hounds. Tariffs and the way commodities scale based on number of units is basically broken and gets worse the more cargo you can carry. Small ships (less cost) and limited high end cargo works, run D mods and skill for lower maintenance. If you wanted to make millions per trip then no, not insanely profitable. But if you stay small you can make insane profit, insane relative to your expenses. Everything is relative. Profit being double your costs per trip in insane, you not being able to do that with all your cash every time is another issue entirely.

As far as end game and Super freighters there is no profit to be had. 1000 of anything being sold in any one place is enough to make the product worth less then the original cost, let alone the possibility that you could haul 10,000 cargo.

That's the problem, you don't want to make 1 hour of trips with ilegal cargo, losing rep to make a million, because you didnt spend this time doing bounties or exploration. It's more harder than everything else. Traders have no place in game on their own, just with missions (if you can get one)

We are in complete agreement on this matter. I wish normal trade was a valid source of income, it should be.
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Nysalor

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2019, 05:20:06 PM »

Hard disagree there; trade is plenty lucrative, and if it was easier it would be by far the obviously-superior way to grind for cash, which would be very poor design.
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Dov85

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2019, 06:26:13 PM »

I don't think legal trade should ever be a valid source of income. There is no fun in just pressing F1 to see where you should buy a given ressource and where you should sell it then. There would be zero challenge and zero risk for the player so if legal trading became the optimal way to make money early game I'd rather just skip the chore and have the cash given to me from the start.
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Locklave

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2019, 07:37:27 PM »

I don't think legal trade should ever be a valid source of income. There is no fun in just pressing F1 to see where you should buy a given ressource and where you should sell it then. There would be zero challenge and zero risk for the player so if legal trading became the optimal way to make money early game I'd rather just skip the chore and have the cash given to me from the start.

Market values can suddenly change destroying any profit. I've had this happen smuggling.
Pirates and LP can attack players trying to trade. This is a bigger threat to someone that's running cargo ships.

Just pressing F1 is not all there is to it. That's like saying Bounty hunting is "just go there and kill them, zero challenge and zero risk." as if it was just that simple.

What other people find fun should not be invalid because you don't want to do it. Go bounty hunt/scav or w/e it is you do at the start, no one is suggesting your ways to make money should be removed to make trading better. Your post comes across as rather selfish.
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Dov85

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2019, 09:14:07 PM »

Market values can suddenly change destroying any profit. I've had this happen smuggling.
Pirates and LP can attack players trying to trade. This is a bigger threat to someone that's running cargo ships.

Just pressing F1 is not all there is to it. That's like saying Bounty hunting is "just go there and kill them, zero challenge and zero risk." as if it was just that simple.

What other people find fun should not be invalid because you don't want to do it. Go bounty hunt/scav or w/e it is you do at the start, no one is suggesting your ways to make money should be removed to make trading better. Your post comes across as rather selfish.

I was talking about "legal trade". Smuggling is, by definition, not-legal trade. Smuggling is fun.

One of the reason it is fun is that it is profitable. If hauling legal goods between core worlds on the open market without ever having to turn your transponder off was making as much credits as smuggling on the black market that would defeat the entire point of smuggling and, thus, ruin everybody's fun. See ? It's not selfishness, it's game design.
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Locklave

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2019, 11:01:35 PM »

Market values can suddenly change destroying any profit. I've had this happen smuggling.
Pirates and LP can attack players trying to trade. This is a bigger threat to someone that's running cargo ships.

Just pressing F1 is not all there is to it. That's like saying Bounty hunting is "just go there and kill them, zero challenge and zero risk." as if it was just that simple.

What other people find fun should not be invalid because you don't want to do it. Go bounty hunt/scav or w/e it is you do at the start, no one is suggesting your ways to make money should be removed to make trading better. Your post comes across as rather selfish.

I was talking about "legal trade". Smuggling is, by definition, not-legal trade. Smuggling is fun.

One of the reason it is fun is that it is profitable. If hauling legal goods between core worlds on the open market without ever having to turn your transponder off was making as much credits as smuggling on the black market that would defeat the entire point of smuggling and, thus, ruin everybody's fun. See ? It's not selfishness, it's game design.

No one at any point said or suggested that legal trade should equal smuggling.

Legal trade without missions nets you nearly nothing or negative after factoring in fuel/supplies/crew pay. That is not a reasonable state. Smuggling can double costs, Legal gets you nearly nothing. A 10-20% return on legal trade costs would make it viable.

It's not selfishness, it's you objecting to something no one said.
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AYE3000

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2019, 09:34:24 AM »


If i'm not wrong, attacking Remnants now you get a chance to find a Alpha Core, having the certain perks makes exploring is ALOT more profitable and you can earn around 500k nearing 1m per trip just exploring and getting these stuffs and selling for who pays more with that bonuses of rep and bounty at 200%-300%.

Supply Shortage of course give a nice sum of money, but you must pay attention on invasions and stuff to do this trading right, and ofc... You have a risk, you get that amount of goods and then the market just stabilizes and you lose all your profit.

I mean, really, trading needs a rework and be more "inviting".

In this case exploration requires sacrifice of skill points, unreliable even with them as you need to hunt for remnants, using a combat fleet which is riskier than just getting a bunch of overclocked hounds that can outrun - retreat from everything and carry good ammount of cargo each. Trading doesnt need any skill point investment to be viable, paying attention to shortages is easy, shortage messages are easy to spot or you can just F1 on your cargo from time to time, markets are static, remnants and other exploration stuff isnt.
If market stabilises you still have your cargo, use f1 on it to see where you can sell it again, i have had that happen and still made profit, trade run just took a bit longer.

Legal trade without missions nets you nearly nothing or negative after factoring in fuel/supplies/crew pay. That is not a reasonable state. Smuggling can double costs, Legal gets you nearly nothing. A 10-20% return on legal trade costs would make it viable.
Crew pay is laughable, having 1k crew costs pennies, even having a lot of officers isnt that big of a money sink and you dont even need officers for trading, fuel is very cheap, again negligible cost, supply costs are cheap too, especially if you are running hound fleet, other bigger slower ships are viable for in sector trading and that isnt risky because you can scout beforehand for hostiles so you wont have to pay CR recovery - less supplies.
For example, i am running a spacer debt x2 game, with doubled supply (item) costs and a "rule" to not do any IN sector trading, still less risky and generally easier - more efficient way to get money than exploration or combat, be is legal trade or smuggling.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 10:01:37 AM by AYE3000 »
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mxyzptlk

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2019, 10:26:24 AM »

Sorry but i still thinking that exploration is alot easier since with luck in around 10 minutes of game, you can buy a Armada to farm Remnants and explore Low-Medium sectors. Also, im talking about trading ilegal stuff, not only legal. In my currently run and im playing with Nexerelin, im losing around 200 fuel per day, and around 12 supplies per day. Recovering CR around 200 supplies per day. Trading inst even a option for late game, thats the problem.
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Dov85

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2019, 11:42:17 AM »

No one at any point said or suggested that legal trade should equal smuggling.

Legal trade without missions nets you nearly nothing or negative after factoring in fuel/supplies/crew pay. That is not a reasonable state. Smuggling can double costs, Legal gets you nearly nothing. A 10-20% return on legal trade costs would make it viable.

It's not selfishness, it's you objecting to something no one said.

My point is that peacetime legal trade between core worlds lending you a 2-3% profit margin at best is a perfectly reasonable state of affair. Again, there is zero risk involved in it. You can know in advance where the pirates are by reading your intels, pathers can be bribed and even without that it's not hard to make a trade fleet either impossible to catch up to or strong enough that the odd pirates or pathers wont want to go anywhere near it. If you are engaged in battle while trading in the core worlds in peacetime you're doing something wrong.

You already get the 10-20% profit margin on legal trade by trading on shortages, but that often involve risking your fleet in systems that are raided by pirates so at that point it become reasonable.

Profitable open market trade makes no sense, both gameplay wise and in setting. Not a 20% profit margin anyway. A 30% blanket tariff on everything isn't there by accident. It means the factions don't want you being involved in trading their stuff. Each probably already has their own chartered trade companies/merchant guilds/subsidiaries handling the trade for them and they don't want the competition from you and your rag-tag fleet of Hounds. Now, maybe there could be a more involved way to do legal trade than just pressing F1 on your cargo and checking your intels from time to time, maybe you could become one of those company that trade on behalf of a faction and maybe having a comission could grant you a lower tariff or a tariff-free quota in the ports where you're comissioned.

Making legal trade more interesting with new features would be welcome, sure. Just making it more profitable by fiddling with the numbers until you get a profit margin that seems reasonable to you is the lazy way out and would potentialy ruin the smuggler gameplay by making it irrelevant.
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Locklave

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2019, 03:32:44 PM »

Trading shortages legally is trading Low Value items. Legit commodities are all low price point, not 500-1200 like illegal shortages.

Trading shortages legally is still tiny profit because of tariffs.

A 3-4% profit isn't worth the players time.

Scav skills are borderline overpowered and even a merchant still has to explore if they want Blueprints, so lets not climb that "Exploring requires skills." as if the returns aren't amazing even without skills. As if you don't explore or scav even without those skills.

Trading on shortages stops being effective way to make money including illegal trading the larger your merchant ships get. Having 2000 cargo space is worthless for trading let alone 10000 cargo space. Bounty hunters can go for bigger bounties with bigger ships, Merchants can go for nothing. The missions for trading are impossible most of the time. Missions like 10,000 Supplies needed a X location in 20 days. 10,000 supplies and in 20 days?! No planet has that much, no 10 planets together have that much.

Super freighters are for exploration loot only. They are useless for merchants.

If you know what you are doing in this game nearly everything makes you easy money. The objections to Legit traders making some decent money comes across as scummy. It sounds too easy in concept so you object, meantime you loot 1 million+ items from dumb luck and no risk (no more risk then being a trader) and that's fine. I really can't stand people that object to things because they don't like them (which is clearly why people are objecting to it), even when they are optional and not required in any way or have any impact on how they play.

edit:

How much metal/Food/Organics have the people saying trading is fine dumped out the airlock for better loot to make space instead of flying back to sell it? The profit margins on those kind of items is so low that it's not worth the fuel for 2000 of them you got for free. But trading profits are fine, right?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 04:08:48 PM by Locklave »
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scarface

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2019, 05:29:44 AM »

I saw a topic about a guy saying that if you have more trading ships (cargo hold), you will get better profit on trading missions on bar, is that true? which would be the most "profit" capacity, i mean, is there a limit about having more ships and receiving better rewards? would be cool having a perk that increases your trading skill, getting more profit and minus taxes.

and why i can't buy all excess from a market? i need wait days for it replenish... if i get more ships, i can buy more?
[/quot

in 1st year of the game, you can get up to 2-3 million (including buying all ships and weapons for them) by trading, if you know where to do so. i usually run 10 mules, 4-6 condors, 4 uhh. middle tankers, 4 salvage rigs, 1-2 oxes, 2-4 troop transports. all mules have converted hangars filed with talons and maulers, condors carry either broadswords or thunders. thunders are useful for capital ships-they can disable them easily, broadswords are better for pirates. with this fleet, you have few thousand units of free cargo space, can effectively wipe out any pirate fleet (in vanilla), can survey and defeat up to cruiser derelict fleet, can destroy pirate stations and raid them, as well as planets, since your speed, with that one skill, is 10 and with oxes 12, you can outrun anything you cant defeat, run down any fleet you want to kill and can farm few hundred thousand a month by trading/smuggling and on the side you can stop in a system to do bounty on ships, one time ive got 2 factions place bounty on pirates in the same system, being 3500 per frigate in total. take out bigger pirate fleet or two and you get enough money to make another fleet like you already have.

tldr:game easy af if you dont RP and limit yourself
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Megas

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2019, 05:54:37 AM »

Two main uses for superfreighters:
1) Haul loot from raiding big stations (like Sindria or Chichomoztoc) in core or killing all of those Ordos in red systems.
2) Haul lots of commodities to store at your colonies' resources (that they cannot produce) so that if there is a shortage, you can remove most penalties by drawing on them (after clicking the use commodities during shortage button).

Superfreighters are not very useful for trading.
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