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Author Topic: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo  (Read 8115 times)

Sinosauropteryx

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Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« on: August 21, 2019, 06:18:05 AM »

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
- common English phrase

Of all the ships in the sector, my favourite has to be the unassuming Buffalo Mk.II. Nothing quite captures the romance of being a scrappy space scavenger like sending a herd of flying dumpsters into battle, bristling with piecemeal weaponry, secure in their consummate disposability. I'm not joking when I say I've gotten more use out of the Buffalo, by number of combat deployments, than any other ship.

Why, though? What does the Buffalo have to offer? It punches well below its weight in nearly every metric, but in two, it shines. First, ubiquity: if you can't find one, you're not looking. And second, its ratio of OP to deployment cost (OPDC) is through the roof.


Data taken from ship_data.csv and recreated here.

For a 4-point pittance, you get to field (at least) 70 OP worth of payload, on a body teeming with weapon mounts and just big enough for a converted hangar. Among combat ships, nothing really comes close. The Valkyrie transport has an OPDC that's nominally better (18.33 to Buffalo's 17.5) but lacks meaningful weapon mounts and, more importantly, is a rare find. Other high-OPDC ships are generally frigates whose utility drops off heavily after the early game. Not so with the Buffalo - its cost is so convenient, I carry a couple with my endgame fleet to fill the gaps between capital ships. More on that later.

Part of the Buffalo's utility is its interaction with the D-mod system. It cares less about D-mods than perhaps any other ship, and with Safety Procedures and Field Repairs maxed out (something I was going to do anyway), the D-mods cross over into upside territory. A 7-D-mod Buffalo hull with both skills maxed costs just 1 supply a month and 1 supply to recover from battle (or 8 supplies if it dies), even with Increased Maintenance. In a similar vein, scavenged Buffalo can usually be jury-rigged and deployed in the field with whatever spare weapons and fighter LPCs you have kicking around your inventory. (It's a good platform for those single-shot Atropos and Sabot.) I've found that other derelicts often have enough gaps in their weapons coverage that, when combined with crippling D-mods, it just isn't worth the supply to deploy them in battle before at least a tune-up in port.

The question remains, what DOES the Buffalo do? The short answer is it fields a fighter and a pilum. For a more in-depth look, this is what I default to:
1x Broadsword/Spark (Thunder in the early game)
1x Pilum
1x Salamander
1-2x any guided missile
1x LR PD, Tactical laser or similar
2x LMG/vulcan
Converted hangar, reinforced bulkheads, makeshift shield generator, hardened subsystems/blast doors

There are other builds (like more missile-focused ones) but bang-for-buck this one can't be beat. The shield generator is the only part I'd consider unorthodox, but having even a garbage-tier shield on an otherwise defenseless ship increases its survivability immensely. (I think the AI controls it more carefully.) Blast doors get a nod over hardened subsystems in the early game, when battles end faster and crews are smaller. You could run both mods (or more expensive fighters) and cut weapons, too. The PD gets less useful as your fleet gets bigger.

On that subject, the Buffalo doesn't drop off in usefulness as the game progresses the way most frigates and other small destroyers do. If anything, it becomes less vulnerable, as it can hide in the shadow of your cruisers/capitals and use a follow order to stay reined in. Its value as a carrier does dip a little, but being able to sneak in an extra fighter squad or two with deployment points that would otherwise go to waste is still worth a couple slots in my fleet. (The pilums also get more valuable lategame.) Conversely, in the early-mid game (pre-cruiser) the Buffalo is at its most vulnerable, but also its most valuable as a fighter platform. This is time when I really spam them and will carry around 7 or more at a time.

The two biggest problems with the Buffalo are as follows. First, the AI tends to pilot the thing as though it were a real destroyer, even when kitted for backline carrier duty. This can be mitigated by giving your Buffalo escort orders on your bigger ships as mentioned above - or, early game, giving your Buffalo an escort of its own. The other problem is crew, which is the resource used least efficiently by the Buffalo (it can't even carry its own full crew complement by itself). If you're not prepared to eat some crew losses you may end up understaffed after a few Buffalo deaths. However, if you're running any number of other dedicated carriers, you should be prepared for that already, and have the extra crew capacity to be able to do it.

In conclusion, the Buffalo Mk.II exemplifies Starsector as a whole. It rewards improvisation during long, skin-of-your-teeth expeditions, then stands up to rigorous optimization and stat crunching back at base. It's the perfect meeting of rugged space-junkyard aesthetic and ruthless min-max economy. It is a dutiful if unglamorous role-player, a staple grain of the post-Domain diet, like the salvage spacer himself.

"Buffalo buffalo buffalolololololololo."
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Sundog

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2019, 08:52:22 AM »

I'm still not convinced, but this is a fascinating challenge to conventional wisdom and I love it. How often do they die? I imagine the money you save on maintenance and deployment costs would less than what you pay to recover them and replace crew.

xenoargh

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2019, 09:14:48 AM »

Phaetons with Improvised Hangers.

Just sayin'.
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Sinosauropteryx

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2019, 09:52:06 AM »

How often do they die?
It's hard to say, they die a lot less than they used to. I've ran with the buffalo for about 6 games so far, and it's been a quest to find the right mix of tanks and payload. If your buffalo die too often, you're probably using too many of them and not enough tanky stuff.

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I imagine the money you save on maintenance and deployment costs would less than what you pay to recover them and replace crew.
I don't know exactly how crew losses work - is the full skeleton crew (50) lost upon death? Is the number modified by Blast Doors and Safety Procedures? Assuming it is, that would be 35 lost without blast doors. If crew is worth 50 each and supply 100 each, we can imagine the 35 crew lost to be worth approximately 17.5 supply, plus a little extra because crew is much harder to find in the outer sector. So maybe 20 supply per death? Plus the 8 to recover is 28 supply per Buffalo death.

Now compare to a Condor without D-mods that never dies, which provides 2 bays, doing the work of 2 Buffalo. That's 10 supply per battle, and per month, compared to the Buffalo's combined 2 supply (assuming 6 or 7 D-mods on each). The Buffalos put you ahead by 8 supply every battle/month, or 28 supply after 3.5 battles/months. So to break even with the Condor, the most supply-efficient carrier, assuming this napkin math holds up, a Buffalo would have to die no more than once every 3.5 battles/months. I can comfortably say my own survival rates are much higher than that.

Phaetons with Improvised Hangers.

Just sayin'.
They have the same problem as the Valkyrie, they're expensive 'cause you normally have to buy them new, and they're weaponless besides. Another problem is they fall to burn 7 if they take the engine D-mod. On the upside, you probably wont need to bring a utility tanker. Maybe I should be converting my obsolete Phaetons after upgrading to Prometheus...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 09:54:24 AM by Sinosauropteryx »
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Thaago

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2019, 09:54:34 AM »

I'm still not convinced, but this is a fascinating challenge to conventional wisdom and I love it. How often do they die? I imagine the money you save on maintenance and deployment costs would less than what you pay to recover them and replace crew.

One interesting thing is that the supply cost to repair a ship from completely destroyed up to peak is based on the supplies/deployment stat as this is (CR % per deployment) * (repair cost per CR %). So for heavily D modded ships, its actually quite cheap to recover them.

Crew and fuel though would be quite expensive.

[Edit] Comparing the Condor and the Buffalo at 1:2 isn't quite right though, as Converted Hangar Bays are a lot worse than normal ones.
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Sinosauropteryx

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2019, 10:33:44 AM »

True, I forgot to factor that in. Let's see: with Safety Procs, the Improvised fighters move at 93% speed and have 80% effective hp (they take 25% additional damage). So we can abstract that as each Buffalo carrying 0.8 fighters. Giving us a heavily abstracted ratio of 2:5 Condor to Buffalo. At 20:5 cost, the Buffalos get ahead 15 per battle/month, or 28 supply after close to 2 battle/months, so your 5-Buffalo team could afford to eat a loss once every 2 battles and still pull Condor efficiency. Of course, with just 1 buffalo that's equivalent savings of 3/battle over the Condor, meaning you can't lose it more often than once per ~9 battles. But it should theoretically be easier to protect on its lonesome.
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Thaago

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2019, 10:35:11 AM »

Does safety procedures effect improvised fighters? I thought it only worked on D mods? That would be extremely interesting if it does!
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Sundog

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2019, 10:39:42 AM »

One interesting thing is that the supply cost to repair a ship from completely destroyed up to peak is based on the supplies/deployment stat as this is (CR % per deployment) * (repair cost per CR %). So for heavily D modded ships, its actually quite cheap to recover them.
I did not know that! This thread has been very enlightening.

Sinosauropteryx

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2019, 10:50:14 AM »

Does safety procedures effect improvised fighters? I thought it only worked on D mods? That would be extremely interesting if it does!
It's not listed anywhere specifically, but I've tested and it seems that's how it works. According to the patch notes in the wiki, "Fighters have reduced stats and d-mod overlay as if the ship had a Defective Manufactory d-mod
(-33% speed, +50% damage taken)" so I think it's accessing the same things as D-mods.
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Plantissue

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2019, 10:50:49 AM »

Meanwhile, on the other end of the OP to deployment graph, is the Doom.

Doom most useless combat ship right?

Rigorous optimization and stat crunching this is not.


If you want Salamanders per DP, use Mercury. If you want Pilum per DP, get Pirate Falcon. If you want both missiles, use Pirate Falcon. Both ships are several times more survivable per DP. If you want fighters, Drover is more DP efficient because of its ship system. If you want Fighters and Slamanders, get Drover. If you want Slamanders, Pilum and Fighters, just get a mixture of ships and it's better.

And then each of those ships are far more effective because they are all more survivable than a Buffalo MKII, which has the hull and armour of a frigate and the shield of half of a frigate, with the speed of a destroyer. And the OP per DP isn't really that high anyways, becuase you will probably want Militarised Subsystems so you simply don't die to faster fleets that can detect you earlier than you can detect them.

Also you missed out the (A) variants for Hound and Cerberus.

I guess you tried really long and hard to make the ship live up to its description so I congratulate you for that. At least one thing is true. There is a lot of Buffalo MKII available to buy.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 10:56:40 AM by Plantissue »
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Sinosauropteryx

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2019, 11:15:58 AM »

Meanwhile, on the other end of the OP to deployment graph, is the Doom.

Doom most useless combat ship right?
Right. Wait, did I say that? No, other metrics to measure ship strength weren't worth considering with the Buffalo cause it falls short in all of them. So instead I capitalized on its best stat to leverage it, I think that's reasonable.

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If you want Salamanders per DP, use Mercury. If you want Pilum per DP, get Pirate Falcon. If you want both missiles, use Pirate Falcon. Both ships are several times more survivable per DP. If you want fighters, Drover is more DP efficient because of its ship system. If you want Fighters and Slamanders, get Drover. If you want Slamanders, Pilum and Fighters, just get a mixture of ships and it's better.
And by get I suppose you mean buy. Or did you mean order from my established colony? I mean, if I can afford to fill my fleet with the ideal optimized thing in every slot, I've already won the game and the buffalo did its job getting me there. Mercury, really?

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And then each of those ships are far more effective because they are all more survivable than a Buffalo MKII, which has the hull and armour of a frigate and the shield of half of a frigate, with the speed of a destroyer.
"Are far more effective" at? I don't think you and I are trying to accomplish the same thing.

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And the OP per DP isn't really that high anyways, becuase you will probably want Militarised Subsystems so you simply don't die to faster fleets that can detect you earlier than you can detect them.
Fugget that noise. +100% crew requirement? I don't know how often you get ambushed like that, but poor sensor game has not been a pressing problem in any playthrough I can think of.

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Also you missed out the (A) variants for Hound and Cerberus.
You're right, they weren't in the data. I think we can dismiss them even if their OPDC is real high.

Quote
I guess you tried really long and hard to make the ship live up to its description so I congratulate you for that. At least one thing is true. There is a lot of Buffalo MKII available to buy.
If you're buying Buffalo Mk.II you're doing it so wrong I don't know what to say.
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JDCollie

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2019, 08:18:30 PM »

I don't think I'm convinced, but you've piqued my interest enough for me to give this a try. I'm thinking a pirate start where I spend a great deal of time raiding in-system (so that fuel is less relevant) might be the place for this strategy. . .
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goduranus

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2019, 09:19:29 PM »

I am also not convinced, do you have video where a fleet with a decent number of Buffaloes actually won a battle?
With no speed or armor or flux capacity, I hardly ever get to see a live buffalo before it explodes..
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 09:21:29 PM by goduranus »
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Vayra

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2019, 09:43:36 PM »

I am also not convinced, do you have video where a fleet with a decent number of Buffaloes actually won a battle?
With no speed or armor or flux capacity, I hardly ever get to see a live buffalo before it explodes..

Did you not watch the last tournament?  :P
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Locklave

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Re: Some Stuffalo About Buffalo
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2019, 10:29:35 PM »

The weapons on the Buffalo are worth more then the Buffalo.
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