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Author Topic: Overrated (overpriced) ships  (Read 28932 times)

sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #180 on: September 03, 2019, 04:39:20 PM »

[...]
What? The odyssey is primarily useful as a player piloted ship, the AI just burns straight into the enemy fleet and explodes 50% of the time when against significant opposition.
First time poster, long time lurker, but I just had to come out and say something. This quote seems to be the popular opinion on the Odyssey right now and I just cannot, for the life of me, understand why...

It because of the odyssey ship system. It can only go forward and does so in one quick burst. The AI is not good at recognizing that it will be in danger after it does something and the nature of the ship system is that it cannot escape easily once it has made a bad decision. The result is that odyssey burns towards stuff it can't handle because of mediocre shields and armor, and then dies when it is unable to escape. Even if your fleet is even or more powerful than the enemy, the odyssey will put itself in situations where it is locally in a 3:1 battle by isolating itself (the aurora also does this). If you are fighting a fleet that doesn't have any enemies that can legitimately threaten the odyssey, then it may not be a problem, but then IMO you are wasting supplies deploying a capital in the first place.
This is the perception, not the result.  The result is that the Odyssey actually gets close enough to do damage (or even just bully the enemy away from your actual damage ships), rather than getting scared as soon as the enemy starts hitting it with beams and other long range weapons.  However, due to being faster than every high-damage ship in the game and with a strong (if not necessarily the strongest) shield, it can easily charge in, unload damage, and then back away at 70 until it gets out of enemy range again.  As a capital ship itself, if the enemy chases with faster ships like frigates and destroyers, the Odyssey simply kills those or chases them off with higher firepower, now that they are separated from the more dangerous cruisers and capitals.

The Aurora struggles due to low firepower.  It's shield and speed are comparable to the Odyssey, but it simply can't kill the frigates and destroyers that come chasing after it, therefor it can never get enough breathing room to vent.  It also has less armor/hull, so if it gets too heavily fluxed it dies much faster.  Remember that AI is a little dumb when flux is high, dropping shields for a couple seconds and then bringing them back up again repeatedly.  It's not an ideal strategy, but if you know your AI is going to do that anyway, you have to make the most of it.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 04:42:14 PM by sotanaht »
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #181 on: September 03, 2019, 04:56:28 PM »

How would the Aurora have low firepower, if the Odyssey does not? In terms of purely shield dps, for the Deployment Points, an Aurora with 3 pulse lasers is the same as an Odyssey with 2 Plasma Cannons. If you are worried about defeating high armour values, 2 Heavy Blaster would be the DP equivalent firepower. The Aurora, just like an Odyssey should be able to dissapitate those weapons flux. Of course, the Aurora needs to be closer and so will get itself closer into more danger, but in theory Plasma Jets will also get it out of more danger too.
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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #182 on: September 03, 2019, 04:59:45 PM »

How would the Aurora have low firepower, if the Odyssey does not? In terms of purely shield dps, for the Deployment Points, an Aurora with 3 pulse lasers is the same as an Odyssey with 2 Plasma Cannons. If you are worried about defeating high armour values, 2 Heavy Blaster would be the DP equivalent firepower. The Aurora, just like an Odyssey should be able to dissapitate those weapons flux. Of course, the Aurora needs to be closer and so will get itself closer into more danger, but in theory Plasma Jets will also get it out of more danger too.
The Odyssey has 2 large energy slots it can actually use, a large missile slot, and 2 fighter wings, plus medium missiles..  The Aurora has 4 medium slots that the AI is more or less incapable of using short of maybe beams and medium missiles.  In practice, the Odyssey has firepower about equivalent to a Dominator (super heavy cruiser), whereas the Aurora's firepower is closer to that of a frigate (usually only firing a single medium slot and maybe some medium missiles).

A PLAYER can make much better use of the Aurora, and bring its firepower in line with other medium cruisers (still less than a dominator).  However, we aren't looking for player ships, we need AI ships to support a player ship, and furthermore the player piloting a medium cruiser simply doesn't make good enough usage of the players capabilities.  He either needs something faster so he can be more tactical with speed usage, or something much bigger so he can have more impact with strategic firepower and aggressiveness.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 05:05:16 PM by sotanaht »
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #183 on: September 03, 2019, 07:26:29 PM »

How would the Aurora have low firepower, if the Odyssey does not? In terms of purely shield dps, for the Deployment Points, an Aurora with 3 pulse lasers is the same as an Odyssey with 2 Plasma Cannons. If you are worried about defeating high armour values, 2 Heavy Blaster would be the DP equivalent firepower. The Aurora, just like an Odyssey should be able to dissapitate those weapons flux. Of course, the Aurora needs to be closer and so will get itself closer into more danger, but in theory Plasma Jets will also get it out of more danger too.
Because it has a lot less dps? Like... A whole hell of a lot less. Like... how could you even confuse the two?

So the Aurora has 800 base flux with 425 base shield cost and 3 medium slots(and some smalls). Its a cruiser and so it can fit 30 vents base and 36 with Loadout Design 2. This makes its shieldless and shielded total flux dissipation 1160/735 with loadout design 2. And 1100/675 without. If we assume stabilized shields then this goes up to 1160/948 and 1100/888. With that amount of capacity it can fire Heavy Blasters at an efficiency of 500/720 which gives it a DPS of 806/658 or 764/617 with stabilized shields and 806/510 or 764/469 without. This at 500 armor pen. It could fire Pulse Lasers instead at 303/333(and then IR pulse for when venting is >999 at 1 to 1) but it would be down to 100 armor pen a significant difference vs armor. Either way this puts you at 1070/862 or 1001/808 with stabilized shields and 1070/669 or 1001/614. Respectable numbers either way.

The Odyssey has 1000 base flux with 250 shield cost and 2 large slots (and some smalls that you should probably not bother fitting). Its a capital and so it can fit 50 vents base and 60 with Loadout Design 2. This makes its shieldless and shielded total flux dissipation 1600/1350 with Loadout Design 2 and 1500/1250 without. A Plasma Cannon does 750 DPS at 825 flux per second. This means that its Loadout Design 2 DPS is 1500/1266 and its regular numbers are 1406/1172

Plasma Cannons also have more range than Heavy Blasters and are not subject to being stopped by opposing projectiles in addition to the increased range of ITU and the fact that the Odyssey is as fast as the Aurora even if the Aurora is using its Plasma Jets in terms of chasing things down.(Also the third pulse laser mount is not on a turret and so will miss more often)

So the Aurora peaks out at 1070 DPS and 100/50 pen if it doesn't have its shields up and you have Loadout Design 2. The Odyssey will being doing 1172 with its shields up and without loadout design 2 and 500 armor penetration. Assuming the same fleet skills and similar shield necessity the damage difference is:

Edit: To make it easier going through and doing the per DP DPS ratio

Loadout Design 2/Shields Down/5x armor pen/Stabilized Shields: Odyssey does 40% more damage. 7% Less per DP vs shields. Armor/Hull Depends on target
Loadout Design 2/Shields UP/5x armor pen/Stabilized Shields: Odyssey does 47% more damage. 2% less per DP vs shields.  Armor/Hull Depends on target
Loadout Design 2/Shields Down/Same Armor Pen/Stabilized Shields: Odyssey does 86% more damage 24% more per DP
Loadout Design 2/Shields UP/Same Armor Pen/Stabilized Shields: Odyssey does 92% more damage 28% more per DP
Loadout Design 2/Shields Down/5x armor pen: Odyssey does 40% more damage 7% Less per DP vs shields. Armor/Hull Depends on target
Loadout Design 2/Shields UP/5x armor pen: Odyssey does 82% more damage 21% more per DP vs shields. Armor/Hull Depends on target
Loadout Design 2/Shields Down/Same Armor Pen: Odyssey does 86% more damage 24% more per DP
Loadout Design 2/Shields UP/Same Armor Pen: Odyssey does 148% more damage 65% more per DP


Shields Down/5x armor pen/Stabilized Shields: Odyssey does 49% more damage .5% Less per DP vs shields. Armor/Hull Depends on target
Shields UP/5x armor pen/Stabilized Shields: Odyssey does 45% more damage 3.5% Less per DP vs shields. Armor/Hull Depends on target
Shields Down/Same Armor Pen/Stabilized Shields: Odyssey does 83% more damage 22% more per DP
Shields UP/Same Armor Pen/Stabilized Shields: Odyssey does 90% more damage 27% more per DP
Shields Down/5x armor pen: Odyssey does 49% more damage .5% Less per DP vs shields. Armor/Hull Depends on target
Shields UP/5x armor pen: Odyssey does 91% more damage 27% more per DP vs shields. Armor/Hull Depends on target
Shields Down/Same Armor Pen: Odyssey does 83% more damage 22% more per DP
Shields UP/Same Armor Pen: Odyssey does 150% more damage 67% more per DP

Now. If you normalize to deployment points and are using stabilized shields and are shooting at 100/50 penetration then you're going to get pretty close. You might even technically do more shield damage in a brawl-off with the Aurora deployment point for deployment point. The Odyssey costs 45 deployment points and the Aurora costs 30 so. 45/30 -> 50% more DPS is our breakpoint.

But if you want the same armor pen and hull DPS the Odyssey is still going to absolutely crush the Aurora even deployment point for deployment point. Against a 1000 armor'd ships hull Pulse lasers will be doing 66% of their normal damage while plasma cannons will still be dealing 83% of theirs which gives the Odyssey a 25% damage advantage. This puts the Odyssey back on top significantly even deployment point for deployment point.


And then the range and the ability to broadslide and...

Kinda big important note... I totally forgot to include any DPS from the Odysseys two fighter bays. I usually have like Xyphos and Spark or double Xyphos, so the DPS there is usually pretty minimal* but you could absolutely run an interceptor or heavy fighter wing and have decent increase DPS for zero flux. The numbers above do not account for that (nor do they count for missiles but the Odyssey has more missiles slots per DP than the Aurora anyway) and are, as such an underestimation of the value of the Odyssey.

*2 Xyphos Wings still adds 200 DPS at 25 pen (Assuming only the ion beams hit and there is no ion arc damage). So the raw DPS numbers should be like.. So the raw DPS number for the first case. Loadout Design 2, shields Down, pulse lasers on the Aurora should actually be 59% more damage for the Odyssey or 6% more damage per deployment point.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 07:41:50 PM by Goumindong »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #184 on: September 03, 2019, 07:41:57 PM »

Aurora is all about missiles (usually lots of sabots and reapers and some heavy blasters for anything that doesn't require a reaper). That's the only loadout that really is worth its cost in terms of output in player hands, but there are other things the player would rather pilot so it just doesn't have much of a role in the fleet. The aurora does not do sustained dps well, it nukes big things instantly with missiles and chases down smaller stuff with respectable but certainly not impressive damage.

Also 3 pulse lasers = 900 dps, 2 plasma cannons = 1500 dps
900 is not equal to 1500, not sure how that math works.
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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #185 on: September 03, 2019, 07:52:04 PM »

@Goumindong
Don't want to quote all that.  I just want to point out that Longbows are one of the most effective things you can put on an Odyssey in practice.  Bombers in general are pretty good on Odyssey.  Because the odyssey fights in close quarters (still close relative to dedicated carriers even if running long-range weapons), the bombers don't have very far to fly and are relatively protected by the Odyssey's presence (either inside its shield, or else the enemy is distracted attacking the Odyssey).  That changes a bit if you run something like Tachyon+ITU, but alone it's a strong argument for skipping ITU.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 07:54:23 PM by sotanaht »
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #186 on: September 03, 2019, 08:30:55 PM »

@Goumindong
Don't want to quote all that.  I just want to point out that Longbows are one of the most effective things you can put on an Odyssey in practice.  Bombers in general are pretty good on Odyssey.  Because the odyssey fights in close quarters (still close relative to dedicated carriers even if running long-range weapons), the bombers don't have very far to fly and are relatively protected by the Odyssey's presence (either inside its shield, or else the enemy is distracted attacking the Odyssey).  That changes a bit if you run something like Tachyon+ITU, but alone it's a strong argument for skipping ITU.

I find that i never needed longbows. I would have more than enough sabot from the medium launchers if i wanted them. Though i am sure they're fine.
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Zeeheld

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #187 on: September 04, 2019, 04:47:48 AM »

I can't afford to take any skills that give extra orders because there are so many more important skills. I spend most of my orders on escorts to keep my carriers safe and then ordering bombing runs at critical points in the battle and saving a few for priority retreat orders leaves little to micro manage other ships. Why would I do that when I can just use ships that don't require it and perform just as well?
That of course changes everything. If you are not willing do direct the Odyssey, it doesn't perform that well.

Sotanaht is absolutely right about everything. I have nothing more to add to that.
Except the part about Longbows being the best choice for fighters on an Odyssey.
I really like two Xyphos wings, too. However, that might be a matter of taste. I like to give it extra defense, but extra KE works fine, too. But with three Sabot pods, it can usually dish out enough KE for a long enough time to be effective.
The Longbows work particularly well when choosing a Plasma Cannon in favor of an Autopulse, since the AI is always so hesitant about using it. That really bums be me out about the PC in general.

As for the Aurora, that might be the one ship with a glaring price problem right now. 30 DP is just too much. I don't think it's worth it at all because it's just too squishy to punch above its weight constantly. And it does need to do just that: punch above its weight because its deployment cost shrinks your effective fleet.
That IBB Aurora, however, is just a joy to behold. That thing is easily worth the 40 odd DP because in essence it is just as effective, if not more so, than the Odyssey.
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #188 on: September 04, 2019, 07:54:21 AM »

Aurora is all about missiles (usually lots of sabots and reapers and some heavy blasters for anything that doesn't require a reaper). That's the only loadout that really is worth its cost in terms of output in player hands, but there are other things the player would rather pilot so it just doesn't have much of a role in the fleet. The aurora does not do sustained dps well, it nukes big things instantly with missiles and chases down smaller stuff with respectable but certainly not impressive damage.

Also 3 pulse lasers = 900 dps, 2 plasma cannons = 1500 dps
900 is not equal to 1500, not sure how that math works.
Do the maths again, but this time taking into account of DP.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #189 on: September 04, 2019, 08:05:58 AM »

I like Longbows on an Odyssey when I don't feel like I have the spare DP for 2x Sabot Pods.  I can spend 24 OP for 4 flux free burst PD + unlimited sets of 4 Sabot or 20 OP for Sabot pods (6 salvos) plus another 30 OP on flux free Ion Cannons plus burst PD.

For example, my current flagship Odyssey is running 2x Plasma cannons, 1x Locust Launcher, 3x Burst PD, 6x PD Laser, 2x Longbows for offense.  59 Vents, Hardened shields, Flux Distributor, Resistant Flux Conduits, and Integrated Targeting Unit.  With Power Grid Modulation 3, I think it vents like 2,760 flux per second.  Going from near full flux to empty is like 4 or 5 seconds.  A half bar is like 2 seconds.  Typically I'll ship system once or twice and just hit vent, throwing off most things for 2 or 3 seconds, long enough to safely vent and bring shields back up.  Also, with that character's skills the Plasma Cannons + shield are just under flux neutral (by like 3 flux or something).  I can't see dropping Flux Distributor and 6 vents for 2 Sabot pods and upgrades to Xyphos for example.

For the shotgun style AI Odyssey, the xyphos seem to work fine.  Although I admit in the heaviest fighting, I've still found my AI  Odyssey is still the most likely to go down of my AI ships, although I tend to have a "Set escorts, meet enemy at waypoint X at the beginning of the fight, turn off waypoints, and now forget about them" attitude for my AI ships.  And given I almost always under deploy or am fighting in 200 DP (me) to 300 DP (them) fights, it generally is going to be outnumbered.  Given a limited 200 DP deployment, I can't afford half of my front line warships to be leaving the carriers and other battleship behind and I don't feel like micromanaging a flanker while I'm already flanking.
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TaLaR

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #190 on: September 04, 2019, 09:09:28 AM »

After experimenting a bit I find that 1 Xyphos + 1 Longbow is the best option overall on Odyssey. 1 Xyphos wing is enough if ion gets through, second Xyphos doesn't add much.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #191 on: September 04, 2019, 10:06:24 AM »

I like to put sparks on odyssey and skimp on PD (usually 2 burst PD by engines and maybe 1 or 2 other PD weapons near bow), but I haven't tested a lot of other things. It works for me though. I use sabot pods for kinetic also.
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #192 on: September 04, 2019, 10:30:21 AM »

Aurora is all about missiles (usually lots of sabots and reapers and some heavy blasters for anything that doesn't require a reaper). That's the only loadout that really is worth its cost in terms of output in player hands, but there are other things the player would rather pilot so it just doesn't have much of a role in the fleet. The aurora does not do sustained dps well, it nukes big things instantly with missiles and chases down smaller stuff with respectable but certainly not impressive damage.

Also 3 pulse lasers = 900 dps, 2 plasma cannons = 1500 dps
900 is not equal to 1500, not sure how that math works.
Do the maths again, but this time taking into account of DP.

I did. It was a fairly large post, i even gave the aurora the benefit of the doibt and assumed it would be firing IRpulse to fill in the flux gap, did you miss it?
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #193 on: September 04, 2019, 10:57:48 AM »

I was looking purely at "firepower", so I only worked out the shield dps, in my head, with assuming shields off. You seemed to put in a lot of effort into the maths with variants and shields on and off, and stabilized shield for Aurora is an unfair comparison, so hats off to you.

I only factored in the the weapons which I wrote. No IR Pulse Laser.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 11:06:52 AM by Plantissue »
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #194 on: September 04, 2019, 02:49:56 PM »

Stabalized shields isnt too bad a comparison. Aurora should probably have it, even over hardened shields. Aurora pays 9 OP for 212 effective dissipation when your shields are up. That is twice the value of vents! Its better than vents even if you have safety overrides! If you arent fitting that you should absolutely be fitting a front shield conversion which gives the same cost reduction for 1 more OP. You could even fit both and each one would still be better price than vents(unless you were SO) at 106 for 10 or 9 for the second mod.

Odyssey in comparison pays 15 for 125 effective dissipation. Worse than vents (still better than flux distributor but not by a whole lot). And you would almost certainly much prefer to go for the front shield conversion. Which is 125 for 18.(worse than a flux distributor but the ability to have rear shields is worth)

Hell i probably should have done a run for both on the Aurora. That gives the Aurora 1053 effective dissipation with its shields up!* Which is enough to run a pulse laser and heavy blaster... almost exactly with .75 flux/second to spare. Which puts it at 803 DPS with decent (but not Odyssey) penetration at loadout design 2. The Odyssey does 57% more damage with shields up before considering fighters or the DP difference or the penetration difference. Which gives it a 5% damage per DP advantage. Still good but i think it changes my estimation of the Aurora to “actuallly it does a LOT of damage” rather than “yea it does pretty good damage”

*Compare to an Onslaught that has 960 with its shields up. While the onelaught has use of TPCs and can more easily switch damage types so deal the right type of damage its also a lot harder to do those things than it is to just sit at the right range with an Aurora
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 03:20:31 PM by Goumindong »
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