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Author Topic: Overrated (overpriced) ships  (Read 30016 times)

sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #165 on: September 03, 2019, 12:32:19 PM »

I meant try as pilot it yourself, why test things with AI since it's obvious it can't perform well with either of the battlecruisers.
The AI performs EXCEPTIONALLY well with the Odyssey.  In my fleet, I can fight any single remnant ordo and not lose a single ship, just sitting back and watching.  If your Conquest is good, it will replace the Odyssey 1 for 1 and I still won't lose ships.  If I lose ships, then it isn't successfully filling the role that my Odysseys fill.  Obviously I'll test with both ships, just to be sure I actually can win automatically.

Now, would you prefer a steady or aggressive officer (or anything else)?  I use Aggressive in my Odysseys, and Reckless in my Paragon.

I can't pilot Odyssey or Conquest worth a damn.  Broadside shooting doesn't gel with turn and strafe to mouse controls, nor do omnishields.  Non-strafe controls just confuse me.
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #166 on: September 03, 2019, 12:34:14 PM »

I have honestly no idea since I pilot it personally every time. Guess steady would work better with my longe range build.
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Innominandum

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #167 on: September 03, 2019, 12:38:24 PM »


Try this and tell me it's bad.

EDIT: I already said speed is very nice, but in the end doesn't make that much of a difference. It's almost as Odyssey is meant to be a glass cannon, but lacks the cannon part.
Not bad, not bad at all, still prefer my own loadout though.

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« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 12:40:54 PM by Hastur »
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #168 on: September 03, 2019, 12:43:31 PM »


Try this and tell me it's bad.

EDIT: I already said speed is very nice, but in the end doesn't make that much of a difference. It's almost as Odyssey is meant to be a glass cannon, but lacks the cannon part.
Not bad, not bad at all, still prefer my own loadout though.

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Hmmmm that seems oddly familiar...
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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #169 on: September 03, 2019, 12:53:22 PM »

Initial testing is promising on your Conquest.  While they are incapable of interception like the Odyssey do (coming between the Paragon and its main threat whenever the Paragon's flux is high), their general fire support still serves well enough to win against some fleets.  I'm looking for the breaking point now, where one fleet can win/win without losses and the other can't.

It works.  I won't say it works better than the Odysseys, but the conquest fleet is able to hold a similar level of performance somehow.  I guess I was wrong and the Conquest is good enough as is, despite its very glaring weaknesses.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 01:12:36 PM by sotanaht »
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Zeeheld

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #170 on: September 03, 2019, 01:23:49 PM »

[...]
What? The odyssey is primarily useful as a player piloted ship, the AI just burns straight into the enemy fleet and explodes 50% of the time when against significant opposition. I love flying it, but I would never even think of giving it to the AI against any serious opposition. I remember the conquest AI being significantly better on this patch, but I still consider both ships primarily player ships that are wasted potential (and possibly a major loss) in AI hands. TBH I slightly prefer odyssey as a player piloted ship, but I usually just fly a doom so I end up using neither most of the time. Conquest is better than odyssey vs. ships with good shields because it can equip kinetics, but odyssey is better for smashing ships with bad shields.
First time poster, long time lurker, but I just had to come out and say something. This quote seems to be the popular opinion on the Odyssey right now and I just cannot, for the life of me, understand why.
Do you not micro your ships? The AI is not capable of any other behavior than to pilot straight on into the enemy. That's why you get the deathballs with every pirate/luddic path armada.
I think that seems to be the big misconception about capitals in this game: They are not created equal.
Sure, the Paragon and Onslaught are perfectly happy just sitting at the heart of battle and taking all the abuse the enemy can dish out, in fact, that's their entire purpose. They cannot maneuvre and are not agile enough to pick their fights.
The Odyssey, however, can do just that. It has the mobility of a cruiser and is therefore suited for maneuvering around the battlefield. This makes the Odyssey perfect for flanking and also for supporting areas where your own ships might run into trouble.
I see it as a better Aurora. And with the right loadouts, i.e. the "shotgun" build or versions thereof, it can easily be entrusted to the AI's hands. You do have to be mindful that it cannot deal well with being outnumbered more than 3:1 by capitals and cruisers.
It needs to be coordinated with your fleet, however, in the sense that it is all too tempting to sic it into a carrier-backline right away and watch it get swamped by the entire enemy fleet on its way there.
Especially if you use a Paragon as your flagship. Only once Paragon is properly engaged can the Odyssey, and by extension your cruisers, safely strike. This requires patience, however, and might seem counterintuitive, having such an expensive ship idle, or just pick off some suicidal frigates.
Additionally, the Odyssey offers a counter to being outmaneuvered, which is terribly important when fighting against phase ships.
In summary, I do not get this discussion.

The Conquest, on the other hand, is just not that good, in my opinion, since I cannot find a role it excels in. It's an HMS Hood or Lion in my mind.
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #171 on: September 03, 2019, 01:44:45 PM »

Initial testing is promising on your Conquest.  While they are incapable of interception like the Odyssey do (coming between the Paragon and its main threat whenever the Paragon's flux is high), their general fire support still serves well enough to win against some fleets.  I'm looking for the breaking point now, where one fleet can win/win without losses and the other can't.

It works.  I won't say it works better than the Odysseys, but the conquest fleet is able to hold a similar level of performance somehow.  I guess I was wrong and the Conquest is good enough as is, despite its very glaring weaknesses.
Glad I was able to open your eyes a little bit, yup it's not great, but it makes up for its weaknesses.

Especially if you use a Paragon as your flagship. Only once Paragon is properly engaged can the Odyssey, and by extension your cruisers, safely strike.

Ughh what? A capital needs to wait for another capital to distract everything so it can engage enemies without dying horribly? Why would I pay 45 DP for that when a frigate can do exactly that, and faster... I don't get these arguments for AI Odysseys being good when people use them as cleanup ships or to flank already overloaded enemies. No wonder it seems ''good'' that way.
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #172 on: September 03, 2019, 01:47:00 PM »


I truly wonder if all those who say Odyssey has the best potential as a player ship ever piloted a Conquest.

The conquest is a lot slower and kills a lot slower in my experience.

For build i like xyphos/spark (or double xyphos), 2 plasma cannons, ITU, hardened shields, resistant flux conduits. Then slam vents and caps. Missiles are nice (i like sabots and mirvs, but salamanders and sabots and locust are also good options). You could also put a tach lance or autopulse on the rear but i think missiles are a lot Better. Sometimes i put typhoons on the front and sabot in the back to make killing stations faster. The sabot heavy player option is safer. Salamanders are probably safest for the AI

The plasma cannons just shred everything really amazingly fast. They penetrate armor almost as fast as HIL and do the same shield dps as mark IXs. And they cannot be stopped by intersecting with projectiles or missiles

With Plasma Cannons the Odyssey has the second highest all around DPS in the game behind “a paragon with its shields down” and the highest all around effectivre DPS in the game because it has the highst dissipation that can bring plasma cannons to bear consistently. (The paragon has 250 more dissipation but it shield costs 200 more and its slow so cant consistently fire them, the conquest does not have large energy slots despite having more dissipation)

So saying that the conquest does DPS but the Odyssey does not confuses me to no end. There is no higher DPS over the course of a fight but the Odyssey

Here is how you play with one as a player.

Step 1: select ordo
Step 2: solo that ordo.

(Ok its actually a bit tough to solo Huuuge fleets with that Odyssey and its a tad weak to fighters so has a lot more problems vs modded ordos but it only takes a few backers to just absolutely slaughter with it)
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #173 on: September 03, 2019, 01:53:00 PM »

Good, I was beginning to worry when will someone come who'll just put numbers in a vacuum and go ''look man, the numbers don't lie''. What I say to thee: ''Thou shall not ignore other combat variables''. As for Conquest being a lot slower, can an Odyssey fly backwards with its system while spinning around like a beyblade? Didn't think so.
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #174 on: September 03, 2019, 02:03:17 PM »

Oh hell yes it can! Though its hard to pull off since you need to flameout during the plasma burn. But you will spin a lot faster than a conquest ever will.

And like... no the Odyssey is better than the conquest at dealing with combat variables. Its faster, more maneuverable, and safer. It has fighters and can use them to deal with “combat variables” that the conquest cannot. It can fit plasma cannons, which absorb incoming fire without reducing your own!

The only thing the conquest can do that the Odyssey cannot is more effectively use MIRVs (and that does have a lot of value since MIRVs are great) since the conquest has longer range and has two large slots.
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Zeeheld

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #175 on: September 03, 2019, 02:06:06 PM »

Ughh what? A capital needs to wait for another capital to distract everything so it can engage enemies without dying horribly? Why would I pay 45 DP for that when a frigate can do exactly that, and faster... I don't get these arguments for AI Odysseys being good when people use them as cleanup ships or to flank already overloaded enemies. No wonder it seems ''good'' that way.
I think you misunderstand my post. Maybe I should have clarified that your fleet needs to work in concert. If you send your fastest ships to engage the enemy alone, while your slower ships aren't in range, you're playing a dangerous game of catch up.
I also wasn't talking about mop-up or engaging only weakened enemies. That is indeed the frigates' job. I was talking about coordinating your forces for maximum effect. And an Odyssey isn't designed to sit around in the middle of the battlefield. You put your Odyssey on a flank, or to bolster defenses where needed. It can totally engage any ship on its own, and it's not so squishy it gets instantly turned to bits by being in a bad spot, but it cannot take the brunt punishment of a Conquest or Paragon; You do have to look out that it doesn't steam head first into the heart of the enemy fleet.
This should be obvious if you only consider that it needs those two fighter wings to work correctly. Its PD is very lacklustre on its own, and even with two Xyphos wings, it cannot stand up for long to too many Hammers raining down on it.
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #176 on: September 03, 2019, 02:10:34 PM »

Gauss Cannon > every other cannon in vanilla. Thank you, you've all been great, plenty of good discussions all around.

On a serious note, all I'm seeing here is a shotgun Odyssey build being the only decent one that's sometimes worth the price. Sure you can go bananas with missiles but Odyssey ain't the best ship for that (both mount and cost wise).

EDIT:
I think you misunderstand my post. Maybe I should have clarified that your fleet needs to work in concert.

Ahh, I see where the misunderstanding is, my musical education isn't really the best. Only tactic I know is the Cavalry Charge™
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 02:15:06 PM by Grievous69 »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #177 on: September 03, 2019, 02:17:32 PM »

[...]
What? The odyssey is primarily useful as a player piloted ship, the AI just burns straight into the enemy fleet and explodes 50% of the time when against significant opposition.
First time poster, long time lurker, but I just had to come out and say something. This quote seems to be the popular opinion on the Odyssey right now and I just cannot, for the life of me, understand why...

It because of the odyssey ship system. It can only go forward and does so in one quick burst. The AI is not good at recognizing that it will be in danger after it does something and the nature of the ship system is that it cannot escape easily once it has made a bad decision. The result is that odyssey burns towards stuff it can't handle because of mediocre shields and armor, and then dies when it is unable to escape. Even if your fleet is even or more powerful than the enemy, the odyssey will put itself in situations where it is locally in a 3:1 battle by isolating itself (the aurora also does this). If you are fighting a fleet that doesn't have any enemies that can legitimately threaten the odyssey, then it may not be a problem, but then IMO you are wasting supplies deploying a capital in the first place.

Ships with high mobility are generally poorly utilized by the AI because it has trouble assessing the risk of using the systems and often puts itself in bad situations with no escape by the system it just used to get there (while the player would typically use normal mobility to be aggressive and the system to escape).  No one is saying the odyssey is bad, its just the AI makes major mistakes with it and capitals are crazy expensive to lose so there is little room for error. It is much preferable (IMO) to have a slightly less powerful ship that consistently survives rather than a stronger one that randomly dies due to AI behavior. I think this is also influenced by the rest of your fleet. Maybe in a fleet where every ship is hyper aggressive, the odyssey will not isolate itself so much, but it happens consistently enough when I've tried it that I stop allowing the AI to pilot it.

As a player ship it is great, although most capital ships should be able to handle a single ordo with a bit of backing. IMO conquest with storm needler + HE kills hard shields ships (remnants) faster (although perhaps marginally so, but storm needler is 1400 dps vs shields at 2:1 damage to flux by itself which is almost the same dps as both plasma cannons combined with twice as much efficiency). Pairing it with something like a mjolnir and some medium HE weapon and double locusts (for hull dps/finishing power as well as anti fighter/frigate in a pinch) gives extremely high shield and hull damage and decent armor pen. A HAG can also work well as a pair with the storm needler if you want more armor pen but the mjolnir has good damage per shot so it works quite well in my experience. I know the AI sucks at using storm needlers though, so that is definitely a player only loadout. I have written off gauss cannon for a while because of the subpar efficiency, but maybe I ought to give them another try.

As to micro managing the odyssey as a strategy, I can't afford to take any skills that give extra orders because there are so many more important skills. I spend most of my orders on escorts to keep my carriers safe and then ordering bombing runs at critical points in the battle and saving a few for priority retreat orders leaves little to micro manage other ships. Why would I do that when I can just use ships that don't require it and perform just as well?
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Megas

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #178 on: September 03, 2019, 02:35:30 PM »

A reason why the "shotgun" Odyssey is good is because Steady AI does not burn into a mob to die.  Instead, it kites like it should, much like 0.8.1a triple lance Odyssey did.  Whenever I use a more classic loadout for Odyssey, Steady AI thinks it can burn into a mob, unload plasma cannons or autopulses, then die.  Shotgun Odyssey does not do that.

Quote
Gauss Cannon > every other cannon in vanilla. Thank you, you've all been great, plenty of good discussions all around.
Gauss Cannon is the best?  I do not agree with that.  It is a gigantic flux hog that does not have enough DPS, not to mention small ships dodge it like crazy.  It is good for its niche, but for general-purpose assault, other guns are better.

For Conquest, I like either Mjolnir+Heavy Needler+Mark IX, or HAG+Mark IX+2xHeavy Autocannon.  Plenty of kinetic damage, with enough anti-armor.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 02:38:13 PM by Megas »
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Innominandum

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #179 on: September 03, 2019, 02:36:02 PM »

Intermission
EDIT:
I think you misunderstand my post. Maybe I should have clarified that your fleet needs to work in concert.

Ahh, I see where the misunderstanding is, my musical education isn't really the best. Only tactic I know is the Cavalry Charge™
Cavalry Charge™
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« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 02:43:58 PM by Hastur »
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