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Author Topic: Overrated (overpriced) ships  (Read 30204 times)

Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #135 on: September 01, 2019, 04:39:50 PM »

Thank you for the infomation guys. What are your experiences with fleet doctrine? What do you set it to?
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #136 on: September 01, 2019, 05:00:45 PM »

Have you even tried it?  With NO officier (which would be dumb in practice, why the hell wouldn't you put an officer on all your capital ships?) it beats the Sim Conquest IMMEDIATELY.  It just rushes in, unloads autopulse, and then the sim conquest is max flux and mostly helpless.  The Sim onslaught takes a lot longer, with the onslaught overloading twice and still surviving a while longer thanks to its high armor, but the Odyssey still eventually wins with 0 hull damage.  It does lose to sim paragon with no officer.  It's extremely close in the flux game though, and when the odyssey does win (with officer) it's all in the flux game, having taken 0 hull damage.

Make sure your fleet doctrine is aggressive of course.

This is anything but sub-optimal.  Sub-optimal is wasting 30+ OP on useless point defenses, or running beams that do absolutely nothing, or putting ITU on a ship that's intended to out-speed its enemy.  All those choices are sub-optimal.  This ship build is the definition of optimized for its role.

The reason to use no officer is because the Conquest doesn't have an officer.  In typical enemy fleets, the capitals will have some form of enemy officer boosting its stats as well.

I just tried this in using the random mission on the mission list, getting an Odyssey, and then trying to fit it to your specifications, then running against the sim Conquest.  Due to the lack of the extra 10% OP, I had to use 40 capacitors and 50 vents.  Obviously neither side had an officer.

The conquest won decisively the first time, with just armor damage, no hull damage.  The Odyssey was engaging for me, and didn't really cower.

Then I tried it with the Full Assault option, and it was even more aggressive.  However the Odyssey still lost.  The conquest's flux went up, but then it dropped its shields and started to armor tank.  Perhaps with a few more runs it might get an overload if the timing is right.  How many test runs did you do with this without an officer?

I guess my comment is you have no dedicated anti-armor weapon on this build.  150 autopulse damage pretty much gets dropped down to the minimum 85% on Conquest armor initially.  Its got plenty of kinetic and EMP, but no immediate knockout blow.  If the conquest armor tanks some of the squalls and sabots (which it did in the test runs I just tried), you've got nothing to punish it with.

Here's a variation that does better in this particular match up and also demonstrates the use of point defense. Swap a plasma cannon in for one autopulse.  Drop the accelerated shields, auxiliary thrusters and expanded magazines.  Remove the 2 tactical lasers and throw on 6 small burst pd in the front left facing small mounts.  Throw on in integrated point defense AI.  Drop capacitors to 26.

I ran it again with that variation, and the Odyssey wins in that case.  About half the squalls don't actually impact its shields.  When the conquest armor tanks, it actually is punched through by the plasma cannon, which in turns lets the autopulse rip up the hull.

Anyways, just my 2 cents.
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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #137 on: September 01, 2019, 06:01:29 PM »

Have you even tried it?  With NO officier (which would be dumb in practice, why the hell wouldn't you put an officer on all your capital ships?) it beats the Sim Conquest IMMEDIATELY.  It just rushes in, unloads autopulse, and then the sim conquest is max flux and mostly helpless.  The Sim onslaught takes a lot longer, with the onslaught overloading twice and still surviving a while longer thanks to its high armor, but the Odyssey still eventually wins with 0 hull damage.  It does lose to sim paragon with no officer.  It's extremely close in the flux game though, and when the odyssey does win (with officer) it's all in the flux game, having taken 0 hull damage.

Make sure your fleet doctrine is aggressive of course.

This is anything but sub-optimal.  Sub-optimal is wasting 30+ OP on useless point defenses, or running beams that do absolutely nothing, or putting ITU on a ship that's intended to out-speed its enemy.  All those choices are sub-optimal.  This ship build is the definition of optimized for its role.

The reason to use no officer is because the Conquest doesn't have an officer.  In typical enemy fleets, the capitals will have some form of enemy officer boosting its stats as well.

I just tried this in using the random mission on the mission list, getting an Odyssey, and then trying to fit it to your specifications, then running against the sim Conquest.  Due to the lack of the extra 10% OP, I had to use 40 capacitors and 50 vents.  Obviously neither side had an officer.

The conquest won decisively the first time, with just armor damage, no hull damage.  The Odyssey was engaging for me, and didn't really cower.

Then I tried it with the Full Assault option, and it was even more aggressive.  However the Odyssey still lost.  The conquest's flux went up, but then it dropped its shields and started to armor tank.  Perhaps with a few more runs it might get an overload if the timing is right.  How many test runs did you do with this without an officer?

I guess my comment is you have no dedicated anti-armor weapon on this build.  150 autopulse damage pretty much gets dropped down to the minimum 85% on Conquest armor initially.  Its got plenty of kinetic and EMP, but no immediate knockout blow.  If the conquest armor tanks some of the squalls and sabots (which it did in the test runs I just tried), you've got nothing to punish it with.

Here's a variation that does better in this particular match up and also demonstrates the use of point defense. Swap a plasma cannon in for one autopulse.  Drop the accelerated shields, auxiliary thrusters and expanded magazines.  Remove the 2 tactical lasers and throw on 6 small burst pd in the front left facing small mounts.  Throw on in integrated point defense AI.  Drop capacitors to 26.

I ran it again with that variation, and the Odyssey wins in that case.  About half the squalls don't actually impact its shields.  When the conquest armor tanks, it actually is punched through by the plasma cannon, which in turns lets the autopulse rip up the hull.

Anyways, just my 2 cents.
Video evidence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOXUsr89o4s&feature=youtu.be

I usually see it kill with 100% hull, this time it took some scratches and ended up on 98% hull.  AI can be funny sometimes with how it uses shields, but that's to be expected.  The conquest absolutely didn't stand a chance.  This is no officer.  Plenty of fleetwide player skills though.  Better to test with those than without, because you are absolutely going to have them.
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Thaago

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #138 on: September 01, 2019, 06:55:13 PM »

lol Oh that Conquest AI was just awful! I'm not disputing the victory at all because its often like that, but yeesh!
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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #139 on: September 01, 2019, 07:28:46 PM »

lol Oh that Conquest AI was just awful! I'm not disputing the victory at all because its often like that, but yeesh!
Here's one of the Odyssey vs Onslaught.  Same setup, but the Onslaught AI doesn't go full-***.  It takes MUCH longer, but the result is the same: Odyssey wins with only superficial damage.  I think this video does a much better job of demonstrating the Odyssey's AI, how it can back off and vent.  The high number of vents installed is very key to this victory because the Odyssey does an active vent while the Onslaught is venting and finishes first.

https://youtu.be/HWskCon3aHU


Now, this fight raises the question about missiles.  The Odyssey is completely out of missiles by the end, and only finishes with its pulse lasers and longbows.  If it had to fight another onslaught, it would almost certainly lose.  However, these ships are intended to be used in a fleet setting.  I allow fleet battles to last no more than about 4 minutes, so by the time the Odyssey runs out (without expanded racks), the fight should be nearing its end.  Furthermore, missiles are only needed for softening up the first wave of opponents and creating an opening/advantage.  Once they die (with fleet help, in far less than 4 minutes per ship), I should have a numbers/DP advantage and no longer need the extra edge.  Again, longbows do contribute to the sustainability.

(edit: I said dominator for some reason, it's an onslaught of course)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 07:33:08 PM by sotanaht »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #140 on: September 01, 2019, 09:16:12 PM »

I usually see it kill with 100% hull, this time it took some scratches and ended up on 98% hull.  AI can be funny sometimes with how it uses shields, but that's to be expected.  The conquest absolutely didn't stand a chance.  This is no officer.  Plenty of fleetwide player skills though.  Better to test with those than without, because you are absolutely going to have them.

Fair enough, I agree it works when the Odyssey has about 20% more shield capacity from fleet wide skills.  The 84% CR means your shield damage ratio drops to 0.71 from 0.75 and 10% extra OP dedicated to vents and capacitors combines to about 20% more shield capacity.  My test didn't have those, and so I saw a much different result.

I guess it depends on what you're looking for out of the test.  When I do ship comparisons, I prefer to do it without fleet wide skills.

I will point out, enemy fleets in campaign also can have both fleet wide player skills.  I've certainly fought at a -20% EW penalty in a 200 vs 300 deployment fight even when both the opponent and my character have EW skills.  Most capitals in enemy fleets will come with an officer.

There's a 249k bounty in my game right now.  If I look at the campaign file these are the leader's skills:

"ordnance_expert":3,"missile_specialization":3,"coordinated_maneuvers":1,"officer_management":3,"combat_endurance":3,"helmsmanship":3,"target_analysis":3,"defensive_systems":3

The ships in that fleet benefit from coordinated maneuvers, a fleet wide skill.  Not to mention the Onslaught she is piloting has a lot of damage skills, better shields, and is faster.  And will be at 85% CR, not 70%.  And she's allowed up to 10 officers.

She has 9 officers in her fleet are at varying levels, around level 15 or so.

The reason to test no skill vs no skill is because in real fights it is skill vs skill, and the sim can't replicate that for the other side.  The only in combat skills I think the player can benefit from that the AI fleets can't is the Loadout Design and Fleet Logistics.  So you do have the 10% OP over all other opponents, and possibly 15% CR.  On the other hand, sometimes you engage 2 or 3 enemy fleets simultaneously.  Always fun facing 20 enemy officers.

Look at this way, if the position was reversed, and you were using the Conquest with an extra 31 OP dedicated to 10 more flux vents and 21 more capacitors, it'd beat the sim version of your Odyssey setup hands down.

When I'm comparing ship effectiveness for myself to use, I often modify the sim to include both variants I'm considering and will put them head to head, at least if I'm interested in 1 on 1 performance.
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Pappus

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #141 on: September 02, 2019, 12:11:58 PM »

Just want to point out that the odyssey venting wouldn't happen in a fleet battle, while the onslaught venting might still happen. The onslaught vents because it detects the severe lack of armor punch. Meanwhile the ody has less armor so in a 1vs1 sure it will vent, but not in the front line.
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #142 on: September 03, 2019, 08:48:36 AM »

So as with Aurora I tried playing a bit with the Odyssey in my current run, and I still can't find a justification for its cost (and rarity tbh). Yes, it's super fast for a capital and has nice campaign stats, but that's it. I replaced the Conquest in my fleet for it as a capital I fly when Paragon is overkill and ehhhh. Sure it gets to the action faster but it kills things slower and is just as fragile. And it has the same problem as the Shrike, tight OP even with LD3 which means I have to leave out hullmods that it needs just to have enough flux to fire my weapons. I even put basic PD lasers all around and yet still had barely enough OP left for fighters. All these ships that have to have mandatory sabots on them have the same problem, they cost way too much just to be a win more ship, or should I say win faster. The more I play with the big energy boys, the more I appreciate the Shrike since its cost is not that absurd like the others (could use a bit more OP still).

I truly wonder if all those who say Odyssey has the best potential as a player ship ever piloted a Conquest.
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Pappus

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #143 on: September 03, 2019, 08:56:06 AM »

So as with Aurora I tried playing a bit with the Odyssey in my current run, and I still can't find a justification for its cost (and rarity tbh). Yes, it's super fast for a capital and has nice campaign stats, but that's it. I replaced the Conquest in my fleet for it as a capital I fly when Paragon is overkill and ehhhh. Sure it gets to the action faster but it kills things slower and is just as fragile. And it has the same problem as the Shrike, tight OP even with LD3 which means I have to leave out hullmods that it needs just to have enough flux to fire my weapons. I even put basic PD lasers all around and yet still had barely enough OP left for fighters. All these ships that have to have mandatory sabots on them have the same problem, they cost way too much just to be a win more ship, or should I say win faster. The more I play with the big energy boys, the more I appreciate the Shrike since its cost is not that absurd like the others (could use a bit more OP still).

I truly wonder if all those who say Odyssey has the best potential as a player ship ever piloted a Conquest.

The odyssey is good in AI hands, cause the AI doesn't look into the future it relies on speed.

In player hands you would rather take ships that onehit the enemy or can tank the entire fleet for the whole match.
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TaLaR

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #144 on: September 03, 2019, 09:04:30 AM »

Odyssey doesn't have to rely on Sabots. You can make an effective player-piloted endurance build for it.
Spoiler
[close]

It's good enough to kill any capital except Radiant in no skills fight, taking only token damage in process. And maybe better Conquest builds, that you can't bait for missiles (since it can have better weapons and can't be outmaneuvered).
Admittedly, it's much more finicky to pilot than Conquest and while good in 1v1, Odyssey loses a lot of it's advantage against multiple big opponents. Odyssey needs to secure position behind Onslaught/ to rear-side of Paragon to win, where Conquest wins by simply maintaining range.

AI can't pilot this build (which is understandable, it's tricky in terms of flux management even for me). Keys are ensuring right approach/positioning and using system dodge to dissipate (it usually doesn't give enough time for proper vent). Also requires much better position awareness than AI has (to actively hunt any vulnerable ships).
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 09:18:07 AM by TaLaR »
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Igncom1

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #145 on: September 03, 2019, 09:23:49 AM »

A lot of these Oddy builds seem to rely on some kind of kinetic fighter support or missiles.

Which is tricky for me, personally, as in my current game my best weapons are the pulse laser and HE beam. So I can't really build a lot of these for my fleet.

I tend to find missile reliant Oddy builds tricky as in an actual battle under AI control, they are guaranteed to go to waste. (Coming from a guy who still likes to give the AI missiles.) So any 1v1 build isn't as suitable for a AI driven fleet v fleet build.

Advice? I know I'm not much of a meta player, and basically never use SO(not that capitals can have that) but what should I be looking for? Just focus on them being tanks who can kill anything smaller before surrounding and killing the enemy capitals like I usually do?
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Megas

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #146 on: September 03, 2019, 09:33:32 AM »

I played shotgun Odyssey more, swapping out lance and MIRV for HIL and Squalls, and piloting it.  (Fighters were Sparks for my latest tests.)  It is decent even for player use, and the AI can use it.  Still, it did not do anything amazing other battleships cannot do.  Well, Onslaught is more likely to die if mobbed, but at least Onslaught has a minute or two of power to smash anything in front of it very quickly (with needlers, Annihilators, and TPCs) if it has enough support to keep mobs off its back.

Not fond of high-tech ships were they need to load up on Sabots and Expanded Missile Racks for enough missiles because they cannot put hard flux on shields fast enough without capping flux themselves with highly inefficient weapons.

Quote
I truly wonder if all those who say Odyssey has the best potential as a player ship ever piloted a Conquest.
A good Conquest is good for player and AI alike.

Quote
A lot of these Oddy builds seem to rely on some kind of kinetic fighter support or missiles.
Like other high-tech ships without kinetics, modern Odyssey (at least for AI) works best stuffed with missiles.  It needs Expanded Missile Racks to have enough to last a while.  Trying an energy only loadout is frustrating, especially for AI use.
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #147 on: September 03, 2019, 09:35:47 AM »

@TaLaR
That was actually my build in previous playthroughs, I'd say that's the classic Odyssey loadout for a player. And while it performs decently, it builds up way too much flux so it's kinda risky to engage when there's a lot of enemies. Why the hell are there Pilums tho? Are you just memeing? Also funny you say it doesn't have to rely on Sabots while you have 2 Longbows... I find their survivability questionable and good ol' Sabot pods give me better results. Only way to guard Longbows is to plasma burn towards the enemy with the shields but that'll get you in sticky situations.

I just put Wasps since they're cheap and provide good PD coverage.
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Locklave

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #148 on: September 03, 2019, 09:42:14 AM »

Enforcer/Dominator/Onslaught all seem to have the same AI control issue. The devs need to revisit how these ship react to events around them. I can't help but think the Onslaught would perform well if it had 3 times it's combat speed/turning. Not that the speed would make it overpowered but rather that the things those ships try to do in combat suit faster ships.

Ships like the Lasher try to drift and shoot, those slow ships look very much like they are trying to do the same thing but only getting themselves destroyed because they can't do it right.

edit:

A good example is when the Onslaught literally moves to expose it's unshielded back. It's trying to do an acceleration and drift fire, all it ends up doing is making the enemies job of getting behind it easier. Because it's acceleration sucks as much as it's turning.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 09:45:58 AM by Locklave »
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #149 on: September 03, 2019, 09:43:11 AM »

I was wondering, does anybody actually ever use or buy the Gremlin and the Pirate Phase ships? Playing a recent "salvage only" playthrough, I found that those are actually fairly rare as pirate ships, negating their worth as an introduction to phase ships, and vastly over-represented in markets, relatively many being available to buy. What are people's opinions on them?
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