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Author Topic: Overrated (overpriced) ships  (Read 28901 times)

Megas

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #120 on: August 30, 2019, 02:00:16 PM »

I mean it has Hardened front shields with a lot of caps and vents. What am I supposed to do? Only deploy when I need to clean up weak fleets?
Yes!  I guess that is why Aurora is worth 30 DP.  Player can wipe the floor against a fleet of mooks… which is not what the player fights at endgame, usually.  They fight ten capital deathballs or Ordos with tough shields.

Maybe Aurora is good in a pursuit, but with auto-resolve, I prefer to use ill-equipped ships that cannot fight in a real fight.
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Megas

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #121 on: August 30, 2019, 03:56:55 PM »

EDIT: Lemme just share a story I already said on the subreddit: ''In a huge fight vs a low tech battlestation and some ludd ships, guess which ship died first. Bingo bango bongo it was an Aurora with a steady lvl 20 officer, given no eliminate orders and wasn't close to the battlestation. My fleet was a Conquest, Onslaught, Legion, Dominator, Aurora, Heron, Apogee, Falcon and 2 Shrikes. Even the *** Shrikes lasted longer. It's just sad seeing that since it takes an effort to acquire one without a blueprint.''
Steady officer cannot use Aurora armed with hard-flux energy weapons competently (because it cowers too much).  Aurora needs an Aggressive officer to get close enough to attack effectively with short-ranged weapons.

That is another reason why I dislike Aurora.  I need an Aggressive officer dedicated to Aurora (or Conquest with Storm Needlers).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 03:58:48 PM by Megas »
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Agile

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #122 on: August 30, 2019, 05:47:32 PM »

Most of the ships are overrated and suck simply because the AI sucks.

In the hands of a good player, a lot of the ships can take on a entire ship class or two.

This is why I stopped using most ships and simply went carrier heavy. After that, I have yet to lose a fight, or at least significantly, simply because fighter AI doesn't have to be good (especially when you get the better fighters like sparks). And the AI is specifically good at being a coward, which is exactly what carriers have to be in order to be effective.

Hence even the worst carriers are better than most ships, which is kinda sad, since I like playing around with the ships. But you yourself being good, unless your piloting a very good ship that your comfortable with, usually isn't going to turn the tides of battle significantly enough later game to matter.

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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #123 on: August 30, 2019, 06:19:07 PM »

Most of the ships are overrated and suck simply because the AI sucks.

In the hands of a good player, a lot of the ships can take on a entire ship class or two.

This is why I stopped using most ships and simply went carrier heavy. After that, I have yet to lose a fight, or at least significantly, simply because fighter AI doesn't have to be good (especially when you get the better fighters like sparks). And the AI is specifically good at being a coward, which is exactly what carriers have to be in order to be effective.

Hence even the worst carriers are better than most ships, which is kinda sad, since I like playing around with the ships. But you yourself being good, unless your piloting a very good ship that your comfortable with, usually isn't going to turn the tides of battle significantly enough later game to matter.
Carriers without a fleet in front of them aren't good enough at "being a coward" to survive.  You yourself being good, or at least setting yourself up with a strong enough ship that you can utilize effectively compared to the AI, makes a HUGE difference ESPECIALLY in the big later game battles.  I usually fly a paragon in vanilla, mainly because not even a reckless AI is aggressive enough to turn the tide, while I certainly can.
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Thaago

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #124 on: August 31, 2019, 10:18:06 AM »

Most of the ships are overrated and suck simply because the AI sucks.

In the hands of a good player, a lot of the ships can take on a entire ship class or two.

This is why I stopped using most ships and simply went carrier heavy. After that, I have yet to lose a fight, or at least significantly, simply because fighter AI doesn't have to be good (especially when you get the better fighters like sparks). And the AI is specifically good at being a coward, which is exactly what carriers have to be in order to be effective.

Hence even the worst carriers are better than most ships, which is kinda sad, since I like playing around with the ships. But you yourself being good, unless your piloting a very good ship that your comfortable with, usually isn't going to turn the tides of battle significantly enough later game to matter.

Outside of specific roles like interceptor cover, I think [poorly built ship < carrier< well built ship in a well designed fleet]. Its extremely easy to make a decent carrier - literally just add fighters. Carriers also force combine effortlessly, so there isn't much need to mind fleet composition - just pile on more carriers. However, they kill quite slowly and require overwhelming the enemy (granted, this is helped in the extreme by the AI not knowing how to fight carriers or outfitting anti-fighter weapons).

Well built ships in a good fleet however lets you take on larger enemies more cheaply - more powerful per DP.
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Agile

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #125 on: August 31, 2019, 08:01:08 PM »

I mean, ive never lost by spamming carriers with Sparks or Spark / Claw combo except against high tech Star Fortresses, and thats about it.

Ive never really seen the benefit of one good ship piloted by the player vs more carriers, considering the fact that the AI is really bad in sticking together and fighting optimal opponents; they either face roll into an opponent and die, or stay as far as possible and only take a few pot shots.

The only times the AI does anything is when I force them to via orders or when you are so hopelessly outmatching your opponent that you don't really need to do anything. Sometimes your forced into fights with the AI where you clearly have a much, MUCH better fleet but it doesn't give you an option to fast forward it; thats when the AI is effective essentially.

Maybe im just not getting it, but I haven't seen a setup used by a player in a actual non-simmed battle where they mattered in a big fight. Not talking the scrap fights early game; you matter then. But later game? When your faced with capital / carrier spam by the AI? I haven't really seen a need for individual skill at that level.
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Pappus

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #126 on: August 31, 2019, 08:37:27 PM »

I mean, ive never lost by spamming carriers with Sparks or Spark / Claw combo except against high tech Star Fortresses, and thats about it.

Ive never really seen the benefit of one good ship piloted by the player vs more carriers, considering the fact that the AI is really bad in sticking together and fighting optimal opponents; they either face roll into an opponent and die, or stay as far as possible and only take a few pot shots.

The only times the AI does anything is when I force them to via orders or when you are so hopelessly outmatching your opponent that you don't really need to do anything. Sometimes your forced into fights with the AI where you clearly have a much, MUCH better fleet but it doesn't give you an option to fast forward it; thats when the AI is effective essentially.

Maybe im just not getting it, but I haven't seen a setup used by a player in a actual non-simmed battle where they mattered in a big fight. Not talking the scrap fights early game; you matter then. But later game? When your faced with capital / carrier spam by the AI? I haven't really seen a need for individual skill at that level.

As a player you can go and make builds that onehit capital ships and do it over and over.
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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #127 on: August 31, 2019, 08:38:53 PM »

I mean, ive never lost by spamming carriers with Sparks or Spark / Claw combo except against high tech Star Fortresses, and thats about it.

Ive never really seen the benefit of one good ship piloted by the player vs more carriers, considering the fact that the AI is really bad in sticking together and fighting optimal opponents; they either face roll into an opponent and die, or stay as far as possible and only take a few pot shots.

The only times the AI does anything is when I force them to via orders or when you are so hopelessly outmatching your opponent that you don't really need to do anything. Sometimes your forced into fights with the AI where you clearly have a much, MUCH better fleet but it doesn't give you an option to fast forward it; thats when the AI is effective essentially.

Maybe im just not getting it, but I haven't seen a setup used by a player in a actual non-simmed battle where they mattered in a big fight. Not talking the scrap fights early game; you matter then. But later game? When your faced with capital / carrier spam by the AI? I haven't really seen a need for individual skill at that level.
It depends on how you equip your fleet.  You have to build with the AI in mind, test with the AI in mind, deploy with the AI in mind.  Usually it ends up being a very capital-heavy fleet, because the AI can't do much of anything with vanilla destroyers or cruisers, but they are pretty freaking good with Odyssey for some reason (don't bother arguing stats or anything, the proof is in the results)

Personally, with the fleet I run, I find that giving orders of any kind is usually counterproductive.  I can sit back and watch if I want to, or I can fight personally and get the battle over with 3x faster, but either way the AI does its thing and I mostly ignore it.  Escort and Eliminate orders are the worst as both force the AI to take suicidal positioning.  Rally orders don't really do much of anything.  Fighter strike is pretty good.
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TaLaR

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #128 on: August 31, 2019, 10:46:37 PM »

How exactly is AI good with Odyssey? The only build that gets anywhere is Sabot + Mirv spam, which is pretty much is SO-build-equivalent in terms of lack of longevity. Any other type of build just folds when it tries to go against sim Conquest (both skill-less). And even that only because sim Conquest has somewhat weak build (no ballistic kinetics on brawl side, no gauss side), particularly unsuitable to countering Sabots.

Said Conquest is very easy to win against by making it waste missiles first, then rolling over it with classic Plasma melee Odyssey. That is what I'd call good piloting. AI is nowhere near.
In fact the only thing that prevents Conquest from being trampled right away is that due to Squall launcher placement it's impossible to align Plasma Cannons to both clear Squalls and hit the Conquest.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 11:25:01 PM by TaLaR »
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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #129 on: September 01, 2019, 12:01:06 AM »

How exactly is AI good with Odyssey? The only build that gets anywhere is Sabot + Mirv spam, which is pretty much is SO-build-equivalent in terms of lack of longevity. Any other type of build just folds when it tries to go against sim Conquest (both skill-less). And even that only because sim Conquest has somewhat weak build (no ballistic kinetics on brawl side, no gauss side), particularly unsuitable to countering Sabots.

Said Conquest is very easy to win against by making it waste missiles first, then rolling over it with classic Plasma melee Odyssey. That is what I'd call good piloting. AI is nowhere near.
In fact the only thing that prevents Conquest from being trampled right away is that due to Squall launcher placement it's impossible to align Plasma Cannons to both clear Squalls and hit the Conquest.
I run Squall instead of MIRV, and dual AutoPulse.  The AI does reasonably well using the autopulse to get kills in fleet battles.  The missiles only exist to soften up the first wave of targets.  The main purpose of the Odysseys is to be simultaneously tanky and fast, so that they can trade out damage and then recover flux instead of getting overwhelmed, while my Astrals do most of the heavy lifting in damage safely behind the lines of other capital ships.  The Odysseys DO score kills though, even after they run out of missiles they have absolutely no trouble killing Brilliants solo or ganging up on Radiants.

In sim, this build beats Sim Paragon about 80% of the time, and beats sim Conquest or Onslaught 100% of the time, solo AI only with no orders.  But it's not sim that matters in the long run.  What matters is those remnant ordos, or the giant nexerelin fleets from every mod imaginable.  Even more important than kills and damage (which they always do reasonably well on in the analytic mod log) though is survivability, and the Odysseys VERY rarely die.  Certainly less often than any of my player controlled ships, and about on par with the Astrals which are in back avoiding conflict entirely with timid officers (Odysseys have Aggressive officers)

Full Odyssey Build:
2x Autopulse
2x Sabot SRM Pod (front)
2x Tactical Lasers (front)
1x Squall MLRS
1x Longbow Kinetic Bomber wing
1x Lux Heavy Fighter wing
Auxiliary Thrusters, Expanded Magazines, Hardened Shields, Accelerated Shields
58 Capacitors, 60 vents

I find the AI does terrible with Plasma Cannons no matter what you put them on or where.  It simply doesn't fire them most of the time, or doesn't use their range appropriately.  Autopulse just works better, and it benefits from the AI pussyfooting around by storing charges for when they finally get in range.  I also find that front shields on the Odyssey appear to screw with the broadside AI preventing it from turning and shooting properly, so while 360 degree shields would be nice, the AI simply works better with the normal 180 degree omnishields.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 12:20:55 AM by sotanaht »
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TaLaR

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #130 on: September 01, 2019, 12:44:15 AM »

Do you mean with 20 level officer? Because no-skills it fails miserably even against sim Conquest (well, stalls mostly, since it's too afraid to attack). Paragon obviously overpowers it too.

I mean if it has 20 level officer, it would have to match a Radiant with 20 level officer. Which I guess is not going to happen, since I doubt this matchup is doable even for best players (it certainly isn't in no skills fight).

No ITU? But this means it only occasionally blunders into attacking with Autopulses, most of the time it's dissipation rate is simply wasted because it doesn't commit to attack and doesn't drop shield to dissipate hard flux.

If you have to build this badly sub-optimal Odysseys to make them do anything under AI control, isn't it better to just spam Eagles? AI can use their best builds without any significant issues.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 12:47:04 AM by TaLaR »
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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #131 on: September 01, 2019, 11:29:18 AM »

Do you mean with 20 level officer? Because no-skills it fails miserably even against sim Conquest (well, stalls mostly, since it's too afraid to attack). Paragon obviously overpowers it too.

I mean if it has 20 level officer, it would have to match a Radiant with 20 level officer. Which I guess is not going to happen, since I doubt this matchup is doable even for best players (it certainly isn't in no skills fight).

No ITU? But this means it only occasionally blunders into attacking with Autopulses, most of the time it's dissipation rate is simply wasted because it doesn't commit to attack and doesn't drop shield to dissipate hard flux.

If you have to build this badly sub-optimal Odysseys to make them do anything under AI control, isn't it better to just spam Eagles? AI can use their best builds without any significant issues.
Have you even tried it?  With NO officier (which would be dumb in practice, why the hell wouldn't you put an officer on all your capital ships?) it beats the Sim Conquest IMMEDIATELY.  It just rushes in, unloads autopulse, and then the sim conquest is max flux and mostly helpless.  The Sim onslaught takes a lot longer, with the onslaught overloading twice and still surviving a while longer thanks to its high armor, but the Odyssey still eventually wins with 0 hull damage.  It does lose to sim paragon with no officer.  It's extremely close in the flux game though, and when the odyssey does win (with officer) it's all in the flux game, having taken 0 hull damage.

Make sure your fleet doctrine is aggressive of course.

This is anything but sub-optimal.  Sub-optimal is wasting 30+ OP on useless point defenses, or running beams that do absolutely nothing, or putting ITU on a ship that's intended to out-speed its enemy.  All those choices are sub-optimal.  This ship build is the definition of optimized for its role.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 11:31:17 AM by sotanaht »
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #132 on: September 01, 2019, 04:03:58 PM »

I was under the impression fleet doctrine does nothing to how your AI ships act.
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Thaago

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #133 on: September 01, 2019, 04:06:46 PM »

I was under the impression fleet doctrine does nothing to how your AI ships act.

I'm unsure as to the simulator, but it sets the personality of non-officered ships in battle. Very useful :).
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Megas

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #134 on: September 01, 2019, 04:36:25 PM »

Your character counts as a Steady officer if the ship has your portrait.
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