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Author Topic: Overrated (overpriced) ships  (Read 28887 times)

Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #90 on: August 27, 2019, 10:05:05 AM »

Without increased range destroyers reign supreme(well them and SO cruisers). Larger ships are too slow to be competitive without them and would me, more or less floating hulks.

I'm saying I don't like that both hullmods exist. Just one or the otheris enough. There's no need for a hullmod that makes the other redundant. Especially when just the DTC itself is worth having. As everyone likes to write ad nauseam, range is king. 5%/10%/15%/20% would be a bonus enough for the ITC cost that would be worth buying for. 10%/20%/40%/60% seems so excessive.

___

Not related but I've changed my mind slightly about the Atlas MkII. In large numbers, (not solo), their awkward weapon placement and shape is somewhat mitigated and their Accelerated Ammo feeder Ship System, gives them enough burst damage to potentially catch kill nearby frigates by surprise. Which with the generally unaggressive fleet AI is exactly what is needed to kill ships. Which is fine as it's not really a ship anyone wants to have in their fleet generally. I just wish its thumbnail doesn't look so much like a penis on the contact/deployment screen.
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SCC

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #91 on: August 27, 2019, 10:19:55 AM »

DTC is for when you haven't found ITU yet.
And the reason those are hullmods at all is because a) weapons have their own ranges already, having different range bonuses for different ships of the same type would be confusing and inconsistent, b) this means you "get" bonus OP for specialist builds, when not picking DTC/ITU.

Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #92 on: August 27, 2019, 12:18:49 PM »

But apparently the current different weapon ranges for 2 different types of range extending Hullmods dependent on ship hull type, and then another 2 hullmods for 2 range reducing hullmods, on top of the normal weapon range, isn't too confusing or inconsistent?

I've already acknowledged that other non ITC builds a few posts before hand. Either case, you express no disagreement that the range increase is too big, nor that there is a particular reason for both to exist.
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SCC

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #93 on: August 27, 2019, 12:25:36 PM »

But apparently the current different weapon ranges for 2 different types of range extending Hullmods dependent on ship hull type,
No, because it's expected and bonuses are fairly similar. It means HVD either has 1350 or 1400 range for all cruiser, not some number that depends on the ship's innate stat, hullmods and weapon's innate stat.
and then another 2 hullmods for 2 range reducing hullmods, on top of the normal weapon range, isn't too confusing or inconsistent?
Not really in the case of SO, since it makes the ship visually different from normal ships. In the case of UI it wouldn't hurt to have it pronounced better, but then you'd have consistency issues: most hullmods don't have any indicators they are there at all.
Either case, you express no disagreement that the range increase is too big, nor that there is a particular reason for both to exist.
First part is true. As for the second, one is the basic kit, and the other is a hullmod that's not found by default and it's supposed to increase your ship's performance above the baseline (the baseline being DTC).

Ebola

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2019, 12:47:03 PM »

Why are you hating the odyssey. I made a ship showcase to show off some of it feats and actually improved on it. In AI hands it can solo well over 100 DP by now - an onslaught being part of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ1H74wyHq8
I have to chime in on this.
No clue what it is about this build that makes the AI love it but it's amazing.
Just now my "aggressive" officer in this thing decided that turning on the plasmadrive and then drifting right through the middle of a [REDACTED] Ordo sounded like a good plan. She somehow survived that -the fighters sure didn't- but nearly overloaded her shields and had around 5 destroyer-class ships against her. Then she seemingly got stuck in the middle of the map. 
Somehow she survives the carnage with under 15% hull and absolutely no armor anywhere, destroys one ship after the other and eventually falls back to the rest of the fleet as some astral decides to send it's fighters on the last enemy that the Odyssey was still fighting. Might just have to savefile edit her into reckless after this.
I can only imagine the look the crew of my Onslaught had as the Odyssey passed them and then later came back utterly wrecked just as if nothing had happened.
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #95 on: August 27, 2019, 01:38:30 PM »

I'm saying I don't like that both hullmods exist. Just one or the otheris enough. There's no need for a hullmod that makes the other redundant. Especially when just the DTC itself is worth having. As everyone likes to write ad nauseam, range is king. 5%/10%/15%/20% would be a bonus enough for the ITC cost that would be worth buying for. 10%/20%/40%/60% seems so excessive.

In the begining DTU didnt exist. There was only ITU. Non-capital ships could get away with no ITU but capital ships and cruisers could not. They ended up worthless. So DTU was added as a mod that you always started with. Such that you could fit capitals and cruisers without them being worthless before you acquired ITU while ITU was still a thing.

I suppose it would be nice to move to “every ship has ITU installed by default” and get rid of ITU but finding transformative hull mods/equipment is kinda the name of the game. There is a balancing track that does not just involve how powerful or necessary any particular thing is but also how it changes the game when you acquire it and the feeling you get when you make that transformation
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Megas

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #96 on: August 27, 2019, 02:07:13 PM »

During Starfarer, all of the hullmods were available and ITU was the default.  DTC was added later when most hullmods became something to acquire and learn during play, with DTC being one of the default you know from the start, while ITU being an acquired upgrade.

ITU could have been built-in for all (and OP lowered to compensate), but Alex did not want to do that in case of ships that did not need ITU, like carriers or pure missile ships.
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #97 on: August 27, 2019, 03:45:47 PM »

SCC, you cannot argue, logically, that somebody's proposed system is too complicated when the current system is more complicated. You also cannot argue simultaneously that you "get" bonus OP for specialist builds, and DTC is the baseline.

Though it is interesting, I can't say I particularily care about the differing versions of people's recollections over the history of DTC/ITU, as related to game mechanics.

Also, that DTU doesn't have to be found, DTC is for when you haven't found ITU yet, ITU is not found by default, all do not matter to my opinion that there is no need for both to exist. Stop typing it. We all know that. It is irrelevant. It doesn't need to be said. It just obscurates.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 04:03:46 PM by Plantissue »
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Megas

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #98 on: August 27, 2019, 05:33:44 PM »

Yes, it is ugly that there is both DTC and ITU, and it would be nice if ITU was the only range mod, and available from the start.  Alas, DTC/ITU split has been around for years, and there is no sign that it will change.  As much as people would like only ITU or even range adjustment baked into hulls, it probably will not happen.  Much like wanting beams to do hard flux by default, or wanting CR removed from the game and play like pre-0.6a Starfarer.

@ Plantissue:  Join the people who said much the same about DTC/ITU years ago as you did.  You probably will not be the last.  Sad but true.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 05:38:27 PM by Megas »
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2019, 07:27:49 PM »

Also, that DTU doesn't have to be found, DTC is for when you haven't found ITU yet, ITU is not found by default, all do not matter to my opinion that there is no need for both to exist. Stop typing it. We all know that. It is irrelevant. It doesn't need to be said. It just obscurates.

Yes. It does. Because the purpose of ITU is to be loot. So the fact that DTU isnt also loot provides a reason for both to exist.

Quote
SCC, you cannot argue, logically, that somebody's proposed system is too complicated when the current system is more complicated

You can indeed argue that a proposed system is more complicated than a current system

It doesnt mean that things cant be different or based on other preferences but it does mean that there is a purpose for the current construction.
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Nimiety

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2019, 07:32:30 PM »

Why are you hating the odyssey. I made a ship showcase to show off some of it feats and actually improved on it. In AI hands it can solo well over 100 DP by now - an onslaught being part of that.

Nice video. I'd never really seen the point of hardened shields but your shrike viseo really changed my mind. I'm using one of those as a flagship right now and its great (solo killed two pirate bases ising a pair)-- going to build an oddessey once I know I can afford to lose it when it dies.

Has anyone had any luck with the scarab?
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #101 on: August 28, 2019, 03:55:30 PM »

It's a dumb argument, because I don't see a reason why DTC and ITU should coexist. It shouldn't be a reward. You aren't rewarded with different version of every single hullmod. There is no better Safety overides. There is no better hardened shield. there is no better Additional berthing hull mods as rewards. It's just out of place. It doesn't even feel like a reward.
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #102 on: August 28, 2019, 04:12:50 PM »

It's a dumb argument, because I don't see a reason why DTC and ITU should coexist. It shouldn't be a reward. You aren't rewarded with different version of every single hullmod. There is no better Safety overides. There is no better hardened shield. there is no better Additional berthing hull mods as rewards. It's just out of place. It doesn't even feel like a reward.

But it is a reward. Why should it not be a reward? Because you don't want it to be? Because there isn't a loot equivalent to everything in the game? Why should there be a loot equivalent to everything in the game?

You're right in that its partially arbitrary. It is. But plenty of things are arbitrary. Why are there XIV battlegroup ships with special hull mods? Why are there LP ships which are effectively drop only. Why are there drop only [redacted] fighters, why are they so much better than wasps? Well because there ought to be some loot in a game like this and so we're going to need some things to loot. And sometimes those things will be upgrades over the current.

As it stands ITU is just a hullmod like any other. You have to find all of them (except the ones you can get from skills). The only difference is that DTU exists because if it did not then ITU would be a required find before you could field capital ships.

And yea, man ITU feels like a reward. I love finding ITU. Its not quite as nice as the first Pristine Nanoforge or Synchroton or Odyssey Blueprint... But its still a really really nice reward.
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Pappus

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #103 on: August 28, 2019, 09:05:44 PM »

Why are you hating the odyssey. I made a ship showcase to show off some of it feats and actually improved on it. In AI hands it can solo well over 100 DP by now - an onslaught being part of that.

Nice video. I'd never really seen the point of hardened shields but your shrike viseo really changed my mind. I'm using one of those as a flagship right now and its great (solo killed two pirate bases ising a pair)-- going to build an oddessey once I know I can afford to lose it when it dies.

Has anyone had any luck with the scarab?

Glad you liked it. I actually thought nobody would be really watching these things from this community.
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #104 on: August 29, 2019, 01:46:31 PM »

It's a dumb argument, because I don't see a reason why DTC and ITU should coexist. It shouldn't be a reward. You aren't rewarded with different version of every single hullmod. There is no better Safety overides. There is no better hardened shield. there is no better Additional berthing hull mods as rewards. It's just out of place. It doesn't even feel like a reward.

But it is a reward. Why should it not be a reward? Because you don't want it to be? Because there isn't a loot equivalent to everything in the game? Why should there be a loot equivalent to everything in the game?

You're right in that its partially arbitrary. It is. But plenty of things are arbitrary. Why are there XIV battlegroup ships with special hull mods? Why are there LP ships which are effectively drop only. Why are there drop only [redacted] fighters, why are they so much better than wasps? Well because there ought to be some loot in a game like this and so we're going to need some things to loot. And sometimes those things will be upgrades over the current.

As it stands ITU is just a hullmod like any other. You have to find all of them (except the ones you can get from skills). The only difference is that DTU exists because if it did not then ITU would be a required find before you could field capital ships.

And yea, man ITU feels like a reward. I love finding ITU. Its not quite as nice as the first Pristine Nanoforge or Synchroton or Odyssey Blueprint... But its still a really really nice reward.


I don't think both hullmods should exist together so obviously I don't think it should be a reward. I am but a sample size of one, but I find ITU pretty fast. I don't even have to look for it. It's just...boring.
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