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Author Topic: Overrated (overpriced) ships  (Read 28925 times)

Dov85

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2019, 09:48:44 AM »

Outside of Odyssey, and maybe Conquest as cruiser and DD killers I would not consider UI over ITU for any capitals. Well, Prometheus, in case you're having a bad day.

Even with UI Paragon/Legion/Onslaught arn't rushing anything with a +15 top speed. It still leave them much slower than most cruisers and open them up to being kitted to death due to their reduced range, but then I guess you would not include any of them in a rushing fleet in the first place.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 09:52:20 AM by Dov85 »
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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2019, 09:57:57 AM »

You never ever have a reason to use DTC, unless you simply don't own the ITU hull mod.

Which is exactly the point. DTC is a stand-in.

Aside from that, I'm not sure I really agree that extended range is that necessary.  It's good for a standoff playstyle that takes forever, but not all that helpful for a direct assault playstyle intended to rush down enemy targets as quickly as possible, which is how I play.  I use it sometimes, but not always.  In fact I'd consider Unstable Injector, which is almost exact opposite of ITU/DTC, to be the more mandatory hull mod in most cases.

On frigates, DEs - sure. Cruisers/Capitals are just never fast enough to face hug enemies, unless SO. And a ITU/DTC-less cruiser often has less effective range than DE, since it's large itself and many slots are not on the very front of it.

ITU gets more efficient with size, UI - less. UI is mandatory for frigates (except maybe opticc Wolf of Tempest), good for DEs (but less so for AI piloted ones), dubious for cruisers (on Eagle/Falcon or Aurora UI doesn't even increase your average speed that much, since a lot of it comes from ship system). Paragon, Conquest and Odyssey can consider UI, but I still find more range better for them.
In terms of percent speed bonus, UI gets more efficient with size.  A Tempest with 180 base speed gets +25, which amounts to a 13.8% gain at the cost of 10% of its OP.  A Paragon with 30 base speed gets +15, which is a 50% boost at the cost of 6.8% of its OP.  So in percentage terms, UI is over 5 times as efficient on a Paragon as on a Tempest.

I pretty much always run UI on my Paragon.  Coupled with aggressive use of zero flux boosts, I can chase down most cruisers and destroyers (the enemy will never have 0 flux boost unless they are in full retreat).  When I'm fighting Remnants in particular I like to hold fire until I can touch shields with the Radiant, then let loose.  Even after it teleports away, I have enough speed and range (range does matter, it's a question of how much) to keep up and kill it.

Even if I can't fully outspeed something, more speed relative to their speed means that I can push forward and hold them in firing range for longer.  That's how you end up killing cruisers and destroyers, especially faster ones like Falcons, with the Paragon, where otherwise they would simply run away as soon as their shield gets low and never take real damage.  Get as close to them  as possible before they get scared, and then have as much speed as possible to chase after them while they try to turn and run.  You won't beat them in speed, but it means extra time to do damage.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 10:03:21 AM by sotanaht »
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Dov85

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2019, 10:14:46 AM »

In terms of percent speed bonus, UI gets more efficient with size.  A Tempest with 180 base speed gets +25, which amounts to a 13.8% gain at the cost of 10% of its OP.  A Paragon with 30 base speed gets +15, which is a 50% boost at the cost of 6.8% of its OP.  So in percentage terms, UI is over 5 times as efficient on a Paragon as on a Tempest.

I pretty much always run UI on my Paragon.  Coupled with aggressive use of zero flux boosts, I can chase down most cruisers and destroyers (the enemy will never have 0 flux boost unless they are in full retreat).  When I'm fighting Remnants in particular I like to hold fire until I can touch shields with the Radiant, then let loose.  Even after it teleports away, I have enough speed and range (range does matter, it's a question of how much) to keep up and kill it.

I would argue that you can do the same with an ITU Paragon since its beams will force the enemy to shield up while you close in on 0 flux. Though thanks to your calculations I realised that I'm better off using Nav relays rather than UI on my frigates and destroyers. So that's the last use I had for UI removed, ironicaly. Sorry.  :)
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pedro1_1

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2019, 10:22:39 AM »

You never ever have a reason to use DTC, unless you simply don't own the ITU hull mod.

Which is exactly the point. DTC is a stand-in.

Aside from that, I'm not sure I really agree that extended range is that necessary.  It's good for a standoff playstyle that takes forever, but not all that helpful for a direct assault playstyle intended to rush down enemy targets as quickly as possible, which is how I play.  I use it sometimes, but not always.  In fact I'd consider Unstable Injector, which is almost exact opposite of ITU/DTC, to be the more mandatory hull mod in most cases.

On frigates, DEs - sure. Cruisers/Capitals are just never fast enough to face hug enemies, unless SO. And a ITU/DTC-less cruiser often has less effective range than DE, since it's large itself and many slots are not on the very front of it.

ITU gets more efficient with size, UI - less. UI is mandatory for frigates (except maybe opticc Wolf of Tempest), good for DEs (but less so for AI piloted ones), dubious for cruisers (on Eagle/Falcon or Aurora UI doesn't even increase your average speed that much, since a lot of it comes from ship system). Paragon, Conquest and Odyssey can consider UI, but I still find more range better for them.
In terms of percent speed bonus, UI gets more efficient with size.  A Tempest with 180 base speed gets +25, which amounts to a 13.8% gain at the cost of 10% of its OP.  A Paragon with 30 base speed gets +15, which is a 50% boost at the cost of 6.8% of its OP.  So in percentage terms, UI is over 5 times as efficient on a Paragon as on a Tempest.

I pretty much always run UI on my Paragon.  Coupled with aggressive use of zero flux boosts, I can chase down most cruisers and destroyers (the enemy will never have 0 flux boost unless they are in full retreat).  When I'm fighting Remnants in particular I like to hold fire until I can touch shields with the Radiant, then let loose.  Even after it teleports away, I have enough speed and range (range does matter, it's a question of how much) to keep up and kill it.

Even if I can't fully outspeed something, more speed relative to their speed means that I can push forward and hold them in firing range for longer.  That's how you end up killing cruisers and destroyers, especially faster ones like Falcons, with the Paragon, where otherwise they would simply run away as soon as their shield gets low and never take real damage.  Get as close to them  as possible before they get scared, and then have as much speed as possible to chase after them while they try to turn and run.  You won't beat them in speed, but it means extra time to do damage.

Paragon does not care about ITU/DTC, since it has the ATC, so unstable injector is easier to fit, but I still prefer the range of the my Tachyon Lances to be 2 500su, since it's easier to get the hit on anithing, since AI focus on not being in a 1 000su range around your ship for Tachyon Lance, and most of the time in my Odissey I use Helsmaship to increase the speed to shot off the enemy's engine, using the ITU to increase it to 1 120su
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Tackywheat1

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2019, 02:20:49 PM »

3 HVD 3 Graviton 3 Tactical laser 2 triple sabot Eagle is decent support. Add ITU and as many vents as possible. Nothing but a destroyer/frigate rush or mass carrier can touch it and then you're just playing wrong. It kind of works like a beam sunder as long range massed support but better at dealing with shields and less effective vs armor and hull (although 3 HVD's can crack armor decently well). Support it with some carriers with mostly fighters and some bombers. Add in something very tanky like a Dominator or an Apogee and this strat works pretty well on low battle sizes (I play with low battlesizes because I dislike losing ships). I've taken down pirate death fleets with 1x Eagle 2x heron (maybe a mora because of how tanky they are) 1x Apogee and some beam sunders (although beam sunders are extremely effective vs derelicts and pirates given proper support).
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Thaago

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #80 on: August 25, 2019, 04:38:03 PM »

As an aside, I kind of don't like the way ITU works because it's pretty much mandatory on capital ships.

ITU/DTC is mandatory on cruisers/capitals by design, that's the reason DTC exists at all. Any build without these aside from SO cruisers,  dedicated carriers and maybe all-missile gryphon is pretty much invalid.
There is literally no reason for DTC to exist.  ITU does exactly what it does, better, for the same cost, and can be used on smaller ships, and they don't stack.  ITU provides 40/60 percent range for cruisers and capitals for 15/25 OP, while DTC provides 35/50 percent range for 15/25 OP.  You never ever have a reason to use DTC, unless you simply don't own the ITU hull mod.

Aside from that, I'm not sure I really agree that extended range is that necessary.  It's good for a standoff playstyle that takes forever, but not all that helpful for a direct assault playstyle intended to rush down enemy targets as quickly as possible, which is how I play.  I use it sometimes, but not always.  In fact I'd consider Unstable Injector, which is almost exact opposite of ITU/DTC, to be the more mandatory hull mod in most cases.

ITU is a reward for either exploration or having high reputation and a commission (or killing lots of enemy ships with ITU). It may not stay this way in future versions, but it is a direct powerup by design.
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #81 on: August 25, 2019, 04:38:07 PM »

The game doesn't work that way. The ship classes don't have anything specific delineating them, but that they tend to be bigger. Some have burn speed higher than the rest. Some have different fuel costs. Some have weaker hulls than the class below.

I agree with that but on one specific point : Range. Because of the way ITU works, the ship class dictate its max engagement range which I find to be a very important factor in deciding who will win an engagement, both in simulation and actual fleet battles.

As an aside, I kind of don't like the way ITU works because it's pretty much mandatory on capital ships. My current fleet it built on long range engagement, with most ships using beam and missile weapons to soften the enemy from afar, a strong ECM game (most battles the enemy's range is cut by 25%) and carriers to deliver the killing blow. It's not unusual with that configuration that my beam Tempests will outrange cruisers and capitals that don't use ITU+Advanced Optics and, being Tempests, they don't care about missiles the enemy might throw at them. They don't do a lot damage-wise except for heating up the enemy's shield a bit but quite often they manage to get the attention of a few of the bigger enemy ships and lead them in a wild chase accross the map where they're being utterly useless and not helping the rest of their fleet.

I was talking about ship roles specifically. Destroyers don't destroy torpedo boats, cruisers don't cruise and capital ships don't adhere to the limits of the 1922 Washington naval treaty.

But since I wasn't clear, you are correct. Add to that, the number of capacitors and vents are strictly delineated by hull type, as are hullmod costs and any hullmods that change according to hull type.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 04:41:55 PM by Plantissue »
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Igncom1

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2019, 02:33:18 AM »

and capital ships don't adhere to the limits of the 1922 Washington naval treaty.

Paragon intensifies!

Although I suppose the Vigilance (or a bunch) armed with a torp launcher might count as a torpedo boat, assuming the AI could ever really play the role.
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Sunders are the best ship in the game.

Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #83 on: August 26, 2019, 02:37:41 AM »

and capital ships don't adhere to the limits of the 1922 Washington naval treaty.

Paragon intensifies!

Although I suppose the Vigilance (or a bunch) armed with a torp launcher might count as a torpedo boat, assuming the AI could ever really play the role.

Surprisingly they can! I gave The Last Hurrah mission a couple more tries recently, just to see if I could get a better score. Initially I had some troubles but experimented with loadouts on all ships, and whaddya know Vigilances with Typhoons aren't so bad. Since you have a few in the mission they provide nice ''support fire'' when a ship overloads.
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Please don't take me too seriously.

Dov85

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2019, 09:27:02 AM »

I was talking about ship roles specifically. Destroyers don't destroy torpedo boats, cruisers don't cruise and capital ships don't adhere to the limits of the 1922 Washington naval treaty.

But since I wasn't clear, you are correct. Add to that, the number of capacitors and vents are strictly delineated by hull type, as are hullmod costs and any hullmods that change according to hull type.

Oh. Well to be fair, real world destroyers have stopped carring about destroying torpedo boats a while ago. They pretty much made the first few ones as torpedo boat destroyers and the admiralty was like "Oh... You know what we could use that thing for ? An high sea torpedo boat !" *yoink*.
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AgentFransis

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2019, 10:33:09 AM »

Condor is much worse than Drover, but it's still a carrier. It can even solo other DEs in AI vs AI (because they totally can't handle Talons/Sparks).
A Drover can solo a lot more than that with the right fighters.
The most hilariously OP combo I've ran across so far is a drover with Diable Avionics Ravens. Replacement Fighters was clearly not designed with single fighter wings in mind (should probably not add any fighters to single fighter wings). That setup can solo a Conquest, and anything smaller is just evaporated. Even abstaining from the obviously broken setups, two Falx or any other good two wing fighter wing is extremely strong in a Drover. Operating at +50% strength most of the time and having losses replaced on demand makes this probably the strongest carrier in the game, with the only major weakness the limited operating time.
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #86 on: August 26, 2019, 01:11:18 PM »

I just wanted to say that I don't like Dedicated Targeting Core or the Integrated Targeting Unit. The range increases are massive and drives the whole bigger ships is better fleet ships problem as they then tend to zone away smaller ships with ease. Are the bigger ship hulls supposed to have greater range almost innately? Then they should simply have that range increase innately, though I guess there would be some builds which don't particularily care about range increase like Safety Overides or Unstable Injector, or simply not wanting to pay the cost. That ITU supersede DTC completely is bizarre. Either DTC or ITU should be removed completely. That you can find ITU, which replaced DTC seems like a storyplot reward element that has long since vanished.
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Tackywheat1

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #87 on: August 26, 2019, 02:26:25 PM »

DTC you don't have to find. ITU is a direct upgrade that you have to find. Also Paragon has innate range increase
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #88 on: August 26, 2019, 07:53:11 PM »

Without increased range destroyers reign supreme(well them and SO cruisers). Larger ships are too slow to be competitive without them and would me, more or less floating hulks.
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Eji1700

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #89 on: August 27, 2019, 01:13:24 AM »

RE: Condor-

Get 2-4 of them and load them up with piranhas + LRMs and use them to pop stations and capitals (especially the pirate atlas).  You don't always want them deployed, and you might want to wait until you clear some of the chaff, but bringing them in is somewhat the equivalent of a medieval trebuchet in that if you set up enough you WILL annihilate anything they can hit.  It's one of the fastest and easiest ways to go station hunting in the early game.

Also that shotgun odyssey is glorious.  Great job.  Really highlights how its loadout lets it carry a unique mix of some of the best weapons in the game (xyphos, sabots, tac lance, pulse) on a frame thats both tanky and maneuverable.  Playing nice with the AI is a full sweep.
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