Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Skill Changes, Part 2 (07/15/21)

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 19

Author Topic: Overrated (overpriced) ships  (Read 28929 times)

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2019, 03:35:23 AM »

Is there anything going for the Condor to make it worthwhile? Ever since the fighter change I have never used the Condor. The limited ranges of fighters plus the slowness of Condors means that enemies will often be beyond the Condor's reach. Condors are slower than some cruisers, and can't escape if pushed by enemy warships. How is Fast Missile Racks suppose to help a carrier?

Spamming salamanders is about the best use you can find for FMR.
Condor is much worse than Drover, but it's still a carrier. It can even solo other DEs in AI vs AI (because they totally can't handle Talons/Sparks).
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1488
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2019, 06:50:47 AM »

The Condor is the cheapest carrier and the best deployment point to fighter wing ratio in the game. Its also civilian tagged and so always attempds to avoid direct combat with enemy combat ships. The drover is generally more capable if you only have drover but the condor does its job just as well for cheaper if you have a front line for which to hide your carries behind

Condor 10/5
Drover 12/6
Heron 20/6.66
Mora 20/6.66
Legion 40/10
Astral 45/7.5

Logged

Agile

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2019, 06:57:20 AM »

Condor is only good if you set it up with either spark/spark or talon/spark, and put only missles, expanded missle racks, and expanded hangar crew into it. Maybe reinforced bulkhead because if your facing a death fleet you will lost at least a quarter of your Condors to suicide rushers on the enemy side.

Usually, however, you will win with this setup if you have 9 officers with maximum carrier and combat skills and one officer with JUST combat skills placed in a capital like a Onslaught that takes all the attention / damage.

Every other setup means you just lose too many Condors for it to be useful (considering bombers don't protect Condors very well). And its not the best against [REDACTED] because of their mobility, aka phase skimming right past your capital to target your carriers.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 06:59:25 AM by Agile »
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5670
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2019, 10:15:22 AM »

While Condors are cheaper per wing, they lack a fighter boosting system so they are less valuable per wing. However, FMR + Salamanders shouldn't be underestimated - its actually damn potent fire support in most situations.

I think the Condor is in a fine balance place combat wise, though I wouldn't mind an out of combat stat boost. Its more that the drover is overpowered for 12 DP... as long as it has a line to hide behind or extreme numbers. Exposed carriers are dead carriers when fighting any kind of hunter fleet.

Re: Aurora
It is worth the cost and is an excellent AI ship. Easily capable of killing all other cruisers, not to mention its high speed making it a terror to destroyers.
Logged

sotanaht

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2019, 11:23:19 AM »

The Aurora looks good on paper, but I haven't found a build for it that I like.  I tried a bunch of different things and couldn't get the AI to beat a single Eagle in decent time.  Any recommendations?  I'm not really too fond of beams and missiles...
Logged

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2019, 12:43:11 PM »

I think a lot of reasons for Aurora being unimpressive boil down to AI. Aurora needs to be smart to get anything done.

It's a ship strongly reliant on it's system, yet AI's system usage is seriously lacking.
- It often fails to activate system to pursue enemy
- Sometimes it activates system and sits in place (wants to be at wrong distance from enemy, I guess)
- (advanced) It doesn't reserve system usage. For example, approaching a Paragon with active ship system is very bad idea if your shield can't hold long enough for cooldown to pass and retreat with system after that.

It has problems with range management - try Aurora with 2 Gravitons, rest hard flux. It mistakenly considers itself a standoff ship and will stalemate endlessly against sim Eagle, unless given 'Eliminate' order.

It's also a bursty ship that needs to vent a lot, and AI is not good at securing vent opportunities. Take same sim Eagle - once you get through it's shield and disable mortars you can vent away right in it's face - LRPDs and Gravs will barely scratch your armor in process. I don't think AI even has logic for 'most enemy guns are currently disabled, rest can barely scratch me = it's safe to vent'.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 12:45:44 PM by TaLaR »
Logged

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2546
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2019, 01:35:06 PM »

@Garance Doré
That's SO build. 2 chain deployed Afflictors can get more kills for half DP cost in about the same amount of world time. And they'd be able to get more useful kills too (picking not omni-shielded capitals right at the start of the fight)
Logged

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1211
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2019, 01:53:42 PM »

@TaLaR

Imagine being OP and trying to have a normal discussion about ships when half of the people are ''hey look just put missiles with missile spec 3 and SO and then watch things go kaboom, ship strong, yes''. If all battles lasted 5 minutes or so that would be swell, but you're telling me a 30 DP and 45 DP ships are considered ''ridiculous'' just because they can quickly kill a couple of ships. Yea sure then everyone would get a fleet of Odysseys and put autopilot on.
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1211
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2019, 01:59:37 PM »

Same with SO Hammerhead, which is like three times as cheap, and ten times more common.
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 9383
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2019, 02:19:22 PM »

Aurora really needs Aggressive or Reckless AI to do well with hard flux loadouts.  With Steady AI, Aurora will hang back and let SIM Eagle or equivalent kill it.  With Aggressive AI, Aurora will make an effort to attack Eagle and will win eventually.

As for Aurora, the core loadout I give it is two Heavy Blasters and five burst PD, all on turrets.  If I use Sabots, then I fill the rest of the mounts with Sabots and get Expanded Missiles Racks.  If no missiles, then the rest of the mounts stay empty while I get hullmods Hardened Shields, Shield Conversion: Front, and Stabilized Shields to let it fire blasters longer.

I tried a novelty loadout with seven IR Pulse Lasers and one Heavy Blaster for the most efficiency for trading flux (heavy blaster when shields are down).  It worked decently in one-on-one fights against other cruisers, but was sub-optimal against a group of small ships.  Also tried two Pulse Lasers in turrets and one Heavy Blaster on hardpoint.  Better against groups, but I had the best results with simply two Heavy Blasters on the turrets (and no other weapons beyond burst PD) for a no-missiles loadout.

I wished Aurora had its 0.8.x flux stats back.  (12k capacity, plus somewhat higher dissipation.)

Aurora requires too much finesse to make it worth its 30 DP cost.  Aurora is mostly good at soloing small fleets that would overwhelm any other cruiser aside from Doom and maybe Heron.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1488
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2019, 04:12:46 PM »

The Aurora looks good on paper, but I haven't found a build for it that I like.  I tried a bunch of different things and couldn't get the AI to beat a single Eagle in decent time.  Any recommendations?  I'm not really too fond of beams and missiles...

Nothing, besides SO, will beat a sim eagle in a "decent time" when the AI uses it. The sim Eagle is full "worthless but it doesn't die" mode with 3 gravitons, 2 sabots, and the incessent need to back off using its active ability.  Even SO ships can have some trouble with eliminate orders/aggressive AI.

Aurora really needs Aggressive or Reckless AI to do well with hard flux loadouts.  With Steady AI, Aurora will hang back and let SIM Eagle or equivalent kill it.  With Aggressive AI, Aurora will make an effort to attack Eagle and will win eventually.

I cannot get an officer-less Aurora to lose to a sim eagle. Well i mean, i can. But i can't get it to happen from a build i might actually field.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 9383
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2019, 04:27:57 PM »

No need for officer if fleet doctrine is Aggressive or higher.  (In my case, I leave it on Steady AI, and I do not want to change it just to accommodate one or two problem ships.  I will need officer for Aggressive AI if doctrine is Steady.)

I tried Aurora with blasters and sabots.  When I pilot it, enemies die.  When Steady AI pilots it, it hangs back, does not get close enough to use blasters, chucks a few sabots here and there ineffectively, but is mostly passive and will let something with superior range like Eagle kill it, or at least lose the PPT war.  With Aggressive AI, Aurora got close enough to use both blasters and sabots and overpowered Eagle.  I wished Steady AI would use a relatively straightforward loadout like blasters, sabots, and appropriate hullmods, but it failed miserably the times I tried.  When Aggressive or Reckless AI pilots it, Aurora behaves like it supposed to, charge in and blast the enemy.

Conquest with Storm Needlers behaves similarly to hard-flux Aurora.  Needs Aggressive AI to work properly.
Logged

sotanaht

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2019, 08:09:00 PM »

The Aurora looks good on paper, but I haven't found a build for it that I like.  I tried a bunch of different things and couldn't get the AI to beat a single Eagle in decent time.  Any recommendations?  I'm not really too fond of beams and missiles...

Nothing, besides SO, will beat a sim eagle in a "decent time" when the AI uses it. The sim Eagle is full "worthless but it doesn't die" mode with 3 gravitons, 2 sabots, and the incessent need to back off using its active ability.  Even SO ships can have some trouble with eliminate orders/aggressive AI.

Aurora really needs Aggressive or Reckless AI to do well with hard flux loadouts.  With Steady AI, Aurora will hang back and let SIM Eagle or equivalent kill it.  With Aggressive AI, Aurora will make an effort to attack Eagle and will win eventually.

I cannot get an officer-less Aurora to lose to a sim eagle. Well i mean, i can. But i can't get it to happen from a build i might actually field.
Two frigates or a capital will beat it quickly, the Frigates might need an eliminate order (otherwise they might never go near it), but that's all.  The problem I have is that Cruisers in general are utterly useless.  My end-game fleets end up as Frigates+Capitals only with Odyssey being my cruiser stand-in.

Eagle is my bottom-tier metric.  The ship already failed against Onslaught, Conquest, and Dominator.  When it fails against Eagle too it's time to chuck the ship.

In other news, I just managed to set up an AI Odyssey to solo Sim-Paragon.  The build that finally did it:
2x Autopulse Laser (left broadside)
2x Sabot SRM (front)
1x Squall MLRS
Expanded Magazines
Hardened Shields
Auxiliary Thrusters (probably not needed here)
Integrated Targeting Unit
Longbow Kinetic Bomber
Lux Heavy Fighter
56 Capacitors
60 Vents

I had an aggressive officier, but I'm pretty sure it was still being treated as my flagship on autopilot.  I have 17 points of piloted ship combat skills (including power grid modulation), so less effective than a maxed out officer would be.  Fleet Doctrine is also aggressive if that helps.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 08:36:09 PM by sotanaht »
Logged

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2223
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2019, 12:00:23 AM »

What? Cruisers are the majority of my fleets... I have at least 4 apogees in my fleet at all times. Capitals are fun but they require so many resources that it's rarely worth having more than 2 in a fleet. Any more and you will spend most of your time searching for fuel and you can't deploy more than 2 in 90% of battles. Dominators are decent, tanky and with good damage but unable to escape. I don't love eagles tbh, and the aurora is a player missile boat with ok brawling ability. The heron and mora are both great and i tend to have 3-4 cruiser sized carriers in my fleets. The astral is also god tier, but for interceptors I would rather have cruiser sized carriers that can distribute their fighters more. Frigates are way less useful in late game, then last like 1 minute and then you have to retreat them. I just keep a few tempests and omens (mostly for pursuits), and otherwise never use frigates.

Obviously cruisers can't solo capitals though... I have no idea why you would expect a ship that costs a fraction of the supplies and deployment points to beat onslaughts or Conquests when piloted by the AI. I can easily set up aurora builds that can nuke an onslaught or conquest with missiles, but the AI will not be able to execute that. Ships don't have to be able to solo every other ship in the game to be useful, they just have to fill role in the fleet (tank damage, deal damage, control the airspace etc..)
Logged

sotanaht

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 297
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2019, 01:17:08 AM »

What? Cruisers are the majority of my fleets... I have at least 4 apogees in my fleet at all times. Capitals are fun but they require so many resources that it's rarely worth having more than 2 in a fleet. Any more and you will spend most of your time searching for fuel and you can't deploy more than 2 in 90% of battles. Dominators are decent, tanky and with good damage but unable to escape. I don't love eagles tbh, and the aurora is a player missile boat with ok brawling ability. The heron and mora are both great and i tend to have 3-4 cruiser sized carriers in my fleets. The astral is also god tier, but for interceptors I would rather have cruiser sized carriers that can distribute their fighters more. Frigates are way less useful in late game, then last like 1 minute and then you have to retreat them. I just keep a few tempests and omens (mostly for pursuits), and otherwise never use frigates.

Obviously cruisers can't solo capitals though... I have no idea why you would expect a ship that costs a fraction of the supplies and deployment points to beat onslaughts or Conquests when piloted by the AI. I can easily set up aurora builds that can nuke an onslaught or conquest with missiles, but the AI will not be able to execute that. Ships don't have to be able to solo every other ship in the game to be useful, they just have to fill role in the fleet (tank damage, deal damage, control the airspace etc..)
In order to be useful a ship needs to win on at least 4 to 1 odds and basically never die.  Remember that the enemy has infinite ships and fleets multiple times the size of yours, and you do not.  A couple of frigates like Tempests do the job admirably.  Carriers fail at the "never die" but they are great for killing things.  Cruisers however can't manage either aspect, they die easily compared to both capitals and frigates, and they don't kill anything.

I've modded my game to increase deployment size, but my current fleet is 1 Paragon, 2 Astrals, 3 Odysseys, and 5 Tempests.  That's it (for combat ships).  It's 325 deployment which is only slightly over default max.  I could probably make do with only 2 Odysseys and work it with default settings.  I have never found a build for a Cruiser or Destroyer that improves this fleet at all, save possibly for carriers.  I use this fleet (among other things, like fighting multiple core fleets at once) to hunt Remnant ordos.  2 and 3 Radiant Ordos are common (complete with 6-9 brilliant cruisers and god knows how many frigates and destroyers).  I need to be able to fight those without significant losses multiple times in a row.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 01:20:16 AM by sotanaht »
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 19