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Author Topic: Overrated (overpriced) ships  (Read 28939 times)

lethargie

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2019, 08:27:31 AM »

Aurora definitly fill a niche that needs filling, it just interact poorly with the AI.

Aurora is made to run around hunting carrier/destroyer/frigate. That cruiser is really damn fast compared to most other ship. The plasma burst ability it has makes it out speed all destroyer except the medusa and all cruisers/capitals. Since the AI pretty much only know how to go straight ahead and shoot, the aurora MUST be weaker than other equivalent ships in AI hand right now if we want it to be balanced.

Safety overdrive on the cruisers kinda break the balance on speed because of the ludicruous boost it gives. So I would be wary of using it as we compare ship
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goduranus

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2019, 09:36:41 AM »

Why are you hating the odyssey. I made a ship showcase to show off some of it feats and actually improved on it. In AI hands it can solo well over 100 DP by now - an onslaught being part of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ1H74wyHq8

Wow, this is by far the most successful ship config under AI control. I can't believe it, Odyssey destroying Onslaught under AI control. How did you come up with this combination with all these mixed armament?

Although, a nitpick, maybe swap those PD lasers and the rear Sabot for something else? With 4 Xyphos covering the ship, I doubt anything serious would get through, that PD lasers can do anything about, but you can free up 28 OP to put into Capacitors and Vents, allowing it to stay for longer under fire or spend less time venting.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 09:50:10 AM by goduranus »
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TaLaR

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2019, 09:59:14 AM »

Wow, this is by far the most successful ship config under AI control. I can't believe it, Odyssey destroying Onslaught under AI control. Although, a nitpick, maybe swap those PD lasers and the rear Sabot for something else? With 4 Xyphos covering the ship, I doubt anything serious would get through, that PD lasers can do anything about, but you can free up 28 OP to put into Capacitors and Vents, allowing it to stay for longer under fire or spend less time venting.

Yeah, I wouldn't be so impressed by SO-like variant winning 1 on 1. It traded any perspective of long-term fights for these Sabots and Mirvs, what's the point if it can't do at least this much?

Skill-less (and without OP bonus too) player-piloted Odyssey can defeat sim Onslaught without relying on limited missiles with only superficial armor damage.
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Pappus

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2019, 10:54:12 AM »

Why are you hating the odyssey. I made a ship showcase to show off some of it feats and actually improved on it. In AI hands it can solo well over 100 DP by now - an onslaught being part of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ1H74wyHq8

Wow, this is by far the most successful ship config under AI control. I can't believe it, Odyssey destroying Onslaught under AI control. How did you come up with this combination with all these mixed armament?

Although, a nitpick, maybe swap those PD lasers and the rear Sabot for something else? With 4 Xyphos covering the ship, I doubt anything serious would get through, that PD lasers can do anything about, but you can free up 28 OP to put into Capacitors and Vents, allowing it to stay for longer under fire or spend less time venting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Loxn2N1qtK4

I just went ahead and let it fight a bigger fleet cause you seemed to like it go. That is the best I have come up with so far the main limitation now is basically that it has no weapon group left.

Anti-Matter blasters largely go unused, more flux regen only speeds up the process of the whole fight but ultimately I am already above what I spend. Also 2 xyphos are iffy due to the ship length if something comes in at the nose while they are behind they won't attack the missiles at all. It would be different if you go double Autopulse with bigger magazine cause that frees up a weapon group. I am not sure how known this is, but the AI has trouble making good weapon decision if they are in the same group but do not have identical coverage.

To the other poster. I think after it defeated 140 OP without any touch of the player your arguments just exploded. In fact if you send two of those against a pirate armada they kill them as fast as they spawn in and push the 3 fleets straight back to the respawn to create a pool of retreating and coming in ships. Feel free to impress us with something you came up with though, I am more than happy to learn.

I also have a legion up that can do roughly the same it just isn't as good as the odyssey due to lack of speed.
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2019, 06:12:41 PM »

Aurora definitly fill a niche that needs filling, it just interact poorly with the AI.

Aurora is made to run around hunting carrier/destroyer/frigate. That cruiser is really damn fast compared to most other ship. The plasma burst ability it has makes it out speed all destroyer except the medusa and all cruisers/capitals. Since the AI pretty much only know how to go straight ahead and shoot, the aurora MUST be weaker than other equivalent ships in AI hand right now if we want it to be balanced.

Safety overdrive on the cruisers kinda break the balance on speed because of the ludicruous boost it gives. So I would be wary of using it as we compare ship

The Aurora is one of the better AI cruisers. The main problems that player AI fleets have is clearing out the chaff of enemy fleets that do not have to abide by your fleet size restrictions. AI Aurora are really good at keeping themselves alive and cleaning chaff in order to allow your fleet to win. They might be a tad expensive for that. But when you aren't invested into fighters and so don't have a massive fleet of them they're one of the best cruisers in the game for AI use.

Re: Odyssey. I do not know why i did not think about SHIELD CONVERSION-FRONT for an AI odyssey.... It gives you 125 flux/second and 360 degree shields... That is a great option there
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Megas

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2019, 06:36:02 PM »

The Odyssey shotgun build posted is commendable for being effective enough for AI.  Did three fights against Onslaught, with Odyssey winning two out of three.  First fight, Odyssey barely won.  Second fight, Onslaught barely won.  Third fight, Onslaught overloaded and Odyssey won by a good margin.  Since Conquest is a much more common fight, I tried that, and Odyssey won (after taking some damage).  Next was a fight against 80 something DP against destroyers and frigates (two Enforcers, two Sunders, Hammerhead, Mule, Vigilance, two Lashers, Hound, and Brawler).  It won the first two attempts with some difficulty, but then got humiliated and destroyed in the next four or so attempts.

Noticed the Odyssey rarely used the rear Sabots, but it has saved it from getting flanked by frigates a few times.  Removing them for something else can be an option.

What makes the build work better is the Steady AI stands off at longer range.  It does not try to burn into a mob, and it does not try to get close enough to overwhelm the enemy with the a bunch of guns.  Instead, it constantly kites like triple lance Odyssey from 0.8.x.  (A different loadout with plasma cannons or a bunch of IR Pulse Lasers, Steady AI will get closer.) 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 06:39:34 PM by Megas »
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Pappus

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2019, 10:06:31 PM »

The Odyssey shotgun build posted is commendable for being effective enough for AI.  Did three fights against Onslaught, with Odyssey winning two out of three.  First fight, Odyssey barely won.  Second fight, Onslaught barely won.  Third fight, Onslaught overloaded and Odyssey won by a good margin.  Since Conquest is a much more common fight, I tried that, and Odyssey won (after taking some damage).  Next was a fight against 80 something DP against destroyers and frigates (two Enforcers, two Sunders, Hammerhead, Mule, Vigilance, two Lashers, Hound, and Brawler).  It won the first two attempts with some difficulty, but then got humiliated and destroyed in the next four or so attempts.

Noticed the Odyssey rarely used the rear Sabots, but it has saved it from getting flanked by frigates a few times.  Removing them for something else can be an option.

What makes the build work better is the Steady AI stands off at longer range.  It does not try to burn into a mob, and it does not try to get close enough to overwhelm the enemy with the a bunch of guns.  Instead, it constantly kites like triple lance Odyssey from 0.8.x.  (A different loadout with plasma cannons or a bunch of IR Pulse Lasers, Steady AI will get closer.)

Yes it was the rear sabbot that taught me parts of how the Ai uses weapons. Long story short you can either link it to force the AI to use it although 3 sabots are more often than not overkill or you link the double sabots to a harpoon for extra punch. The PD lasers were also largely dismounted for 3 burst PDs although it doesn't matter too much.

The only question left is if you want the second tachyon or not for the potential it brings. AI doesn't use it well, doesn't understand to hold it without hard flux on the target and so on or if you want a second auto laser + expanded magazine. An aggressive AI officer with the correct skills will allow it to go fully nuts.
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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2019, 07:13:26 AM »

Aurora is only good if it is loaded with lots of Sabots (all synergies stuffed with Sabots plus Expanded Missile Racks), and I am not sure the AI can use it well.  Sabot Aurora is good under player control, but AI could not overpower a lone Eagle (and eventually died).

Odyssey is another.  It needs plasma cannons to be competitive against serious opposition.  If it is limited to autopulse, it is subpar.  AI just burns to its death.

I will add more later.
I'm actually loving the Odyssey right now.  Using it more as an ultra-cruiser than a capital, with multiple Odysseys supporting a player Paragon.  They have great speed and tankyness, so they naturally keep up a lot of interference preventing the enemy from being able to overwhelm my paragon.  They also chase down Radiants pretty well.  I keep them very lightly armed, with only 2 autopulse lasers and some anti-shield missiles, focusing mostly on maximizing their shielding.
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2019, 08:03:53 AM »

If I want a high tech tanky ship I can just get an Apogee that's ONLY 18 DP, has also decent firepower but lacks the mobility system of Odyssey. But I don't care for mobility on big ships, there are others suited for that role. Sure, flanking is fun but I can just cut through the enemy fleet with other capitals and laugh. My opinion on good cruisers for player piloting changed a lot over the years, and in the end I've had most success with just a simple Dominator. There's not a thing I can't kill with it, who needs fancy systems phh.

After Doom of course, but it costs as much as a capital so not really counting it here.
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Igncom1

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2019, 08:11:36 AM »

Phase ships are kinda "counts as" for the next highest size, right?
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2019, 08:36:36 AM »

That's what Alex said before so yes.
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2019, 09:08:30 AM »

If I want a high tech tanky ship I can just get an Apogee that's ONLY 18 DP, has also decent firepower but lacks the mobility system of Odyssey. But I don't care for mobility on big ships, there are others suited for that role. Sure, flanking is fun but I can just cut through the enemy fleet with other capitals and laugh. My opinion on good cruisers for player piloting changed a lot over the years, and in the end I've had most success with just a simple Dominator. There's not a thing I can't kill with it, who needs fancy systems phh.

After Doom of course, but it costs as much as a capital so not really counting it here.

Youre missing out.

So semi-aside. Back in the day of eve online there were modules called nanofibers. They increased the speed and reduced the mass of your ship, making it faster and more maneuverable. In EVE everything stacked multiplicatively.

Now each size of ship came with guns that were its own size, like starsector bigger guns had more inherent range. Anyway when you fit nanofiber onto a bigger ship size it would end up with better firepower to a ship one class smaller that was fit for damage. But the larger ship would be faster and more maneuverable and more tanky.

As a result everyone had to fit nano-fibers on everything. And only the largest ships would be sometimes excepted.

In starsector only a handful of ships can do that thing with the speed. But those that can are immensely powerful as a result. Especially as player ships. They let the player and AI isolate and kill smaller ships until such a point as their side outnumbers the larger ships significantly. At which point those slow large ships are simply prey.
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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2019, 07:48:33 PM »

If I want a high tech tanky ship I can just get an Apogee that's ONLY 18 DP, has also decent firepower but lacks the mobility system of Odyssey. But I don't care for mobility on big ships, there are others suited for that role. Sure, flanking is fun but I can just cut through the enemy fleet with other capitals and laugh. My opinion on good cruisers for player piloting changed a lot over the years, and in the end I've had most success with just a simple Dominator. There's not a thing I can't kill with it, who needs fancy systems phh.

After Doom of course, but it costs as much as a capital so not really counting it here.
Mobility is THE reason to go for Odyssey, and you are severely underrating having mobility on big ships.

Being mobile means that it can get in AND OUT of combat.  A slow paragon or apogee can be super tanky, but when they get overwhelmed it's just a matter of time before they eventually flux out.  An Odyssey can almost always escape from anything strong enough to break its shields.  Additionally, with the high speed getting into combat an Odyssey makes for a great "rescue" ship when you get in over your head yourself piloting something like a paragon.  It can quickly get between you and the enemy fleet giving you time to vent, then out again when you are 0 flux ready for round two.  Just order it to attack some ship on the opposite side of you, then cancel the order as soon as it gets in position.
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goduranus

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2019, 03:17:31 AM »

Is there anything going for the Condor to make it worthwhile? Ever since the fighter change I have never used the Condor. The limited ranges of fighters plus the slowness of Condors means that enemies will often be beyond the Condor's reach. Condors are slower than some cruisers, and can't escape if pushed by enemy warships. How is Fast Missile Racks suppose to help a carrier?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 03:21:05 AM by goduranus »
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2019, 03:31:02 AM »

Yea I also don't get the point of it besides being a tutorial carrier. I'd rather have a makeshift carrier with Converted hangar in my fleet than a Condor. Guess it's ok for being a common pirate carrier just to make the early game not a nightmare.
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