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Author Topic: Colonies Cause World Wars  (Read 7081 times)

StarScum

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Colonies Cause World Wars
« on: August 07, 2019, 04:54:53 PM »

...Or rather galactic wars.

The game says swatting down expedition fleets won't hurt your standing with the faction that sent it, but it actually does. I suppose technically attacking the expedition itself doesn't cause an opinion malus, but defeating it causes the expedition to fail which then leads to a drop in opinion, so its the same thing at the end of the day.

It seems inevitable when you set up your first colony that you will be at war with literally everyone because they all send fleets to *** with you. This will eventually make the core worlds all but off limits, and there is no possibility for forging a lasting peace unless you grind reputation constantly. You'd think you could get some sort of agreement going after you've bloodies their noses a few times, but nope.

I can understand the Hegemony wanting to squash you as they claim the entire sector, but even they don't constantly fight the other factions.

I know its asked for a lot, but the devs really need to make a way for you to make peace if they want to fix the endgame being Galactic Babysitting Simulation 2018. Oh, and a way to organize autonomous strike groups to take out Pirates and Pather bases. That's another major annoyance.
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Megas

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2019, 06:02:11 PM »

Combat does not reduce reputation, but what will reduce rep is if their expedition fails.  If their expedition succeeds (which you do not want to happen since it hurts you), then no rep is lost.

Quote
I know its asked for a lot, but the devs really need to make a way for you to make peace if they want to fix the endgame being Galactic Babysitting Simulation 2018. Oh, and a way to organize autonomous strike groups to take out Pirates and Pather bases. That's another major annoyance.
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Once player builds a colony, it is babysitting simulator, and I do not like it either.  I am tempted to let core worlds die for no more expeditions from major factions and inspections from big H.
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StarScum

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2019, 12:08:08 AM »

Combat does not reduce reputation, but what will reduce rep is if their expedition fails.  If their expedition succeeds (which you do not want to happen since it hurts you), then no rep is lost.


I know and its ***. I don't know why they bother to tell us we won't lose reputation for fighting the expedition when you effectively do. I was very confused and frustrated when I got an opinion hit and then even more so when I found out why I was getting it.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2019, 09:17:03 PM »

Combat does not reduce reputation, but what will reduce rep is if their expedition fails.  If their expedition succeeds (which you do not want to happen since it hurts you), then no rep is lost.
I know and its ***. I don't know why they bother to tell us we won't lose reputation for fighting the expedition when you effectively do. I was very confused and frustrated when I got an opinion hit and then even more so when I found out why I was getting it.
It didn't originally in .9 . Instead you lost 5 rep per FLEET you fought, which lead to people just letting their AI fleets take care of it as it was the most optimal
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Nimiety

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2019, 05:36:07 AM »

I thought it was very funny that the I took a 'failed expedition' relationship hit with the Hegemony for abandoning a colony on that pirate moon in Corvus before the Saturated Bombardment fleet got there. 'How dare you pay 100,000 to evacuate those civilians we were going to holocaust!'
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Igncom1

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2019, 09:03:44 AM »

To be fair, babysitting colonies isn't as much of a problem if it's the last thing you do.

My first few games of this version involved me surveying almost the entire sector before settling down, with a massive wealth of loot and a strong battlefleet to defend with.

If anything I'd say that players often settle too early and kinda ruin the games fun for themselves before they are ready. Slowing or stopping early colonizing could be a good thing, if only to stop players from pulling their hair out before it's time to do so.
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cerebus23

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2019, 05:52:47 AM »

I can the established colonies not liking the new kids on the block, big verse and all, but they got the trade and they make the rules, and you just come along and horn in.

But if they going to wipe you out they should ally and wipe you out since well like we can all see they all going to hate you and be at war with you eventually.

Still alpha though and i got to imagine that diplomacy and suing for peace and etc i hope are in the game, we got the remanants the luddiates and the genocidal and suicidal pirates, to keep you busy, hopefully pirates less so and remants more so in the final game.

hegemony should stay aholes, i currently exploiting the game to depopulate their bases and planets, about half their planets are now decivilized, most of the pirate worlds are wiped out and the independents had to go because they kept trading with pirates and others i was at war with so.....

You got to keep some factions alive to trade with and in theory to have allies should shtf. A few i think i could work with but the expedition stuff is mucking that up provided you not grinding missions for the factions at lest occasionally to offset the hits, diplomacy should be able to head off the messing with you stuff though when all the is done.

its alpha!
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lethargie

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2019, 06:44:25 AM »

If you don't freeport and don't produce too much, nobody is going to sent expedition toward you unless you use Ai core and refuse inspection.
I have had profitable world grow from 3 to 5 without a single expedition. Most player just insist on outproducing everyone in the sector and then wonder why the big guys want to crush the upstart ***.

The only reason according to the lore that they don't focus fire your world with the might of the entire sector is that they hate each other and fear they would be sucker-punched by the others.
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Megas

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2019, 07:18:42 AM »

It does not take much to "outproduce" the sector enough to bring the wrath of Diktat/League/TT on your colonies.  Fuel Production of any sort will send Diktat/League.  Maybe likewise for anything from Heavy Industry.  The only producing industry where I had no problems was Farming, yet someone mentioned that he got expeditions from food after his colony grew big enough.  "Too much" is not much at all (some industries always produce too much), and after the colony grows big enough, the only safe amount is none at all.  It seems once colony size reaches 5, producing anything that may be exported might aggravate the majors.

Early colony is home base to store stuff, restock on fleet basics, and minor income to pay for personnel running your ships.  Still needs orbital stations and HQ for low-level anti-pirate defense.
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Final

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2019, 12:31:00 PM »

I must admit that this is concerning. I'm eager to set up my first colony (but I've not found any suitable planet yet) but your posts sound like this would be more hassle then benefit...
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Megas

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2019, 03:12:53 PM »

Just build one and see what happens.

Keep in mind...
* Population and Infrastructure will generate some income.  Exports is not the only source of income.
* Demand for small early colonies will be mostly met through imports from other factions.  This is okay for smaller colonies early.
* Always build Orbital Station and (if you have relays) Patrol HQ.
* Avoid Free Port until you are powerful enough to destroy any single fleet of normal ships (i.e., ships you can pilot).
* If you do not want your colony to grow to size 5 and need to reverse growth, you can remove spaceport then rebuild it later after progress bar goes down.

I like to build a colony as soon as I can afford one and/or I lose money per month due to too much personnel in my fleet.
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Whiskiz

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2019, 02:06:25 AM »

The important thing about colonies and the hassles with them i feel is all about all the different mechanics and utilizing them all together properly (and in the right order) and the fact that this is the first iteration of the system if i'm not mistaken, with colonies having been introduced in 0.9

Maybe attacks weren't intended to be this aggressive and numerous and it just needs to be scaled/balanced a little better next time around.

Maybe the colony constructing system isn't intended to be used so early, making the scaling appropriate for later on - if so then it's the barrier of entry that needs to be worked on (can get 1000 crew etc and find a good place very early.)

Maybe the Free Port mechanic isn't meant to be activated straight away, because maybe colonies are mid/end game and maybe freeports and the following defense needs and combat are like the mid/endgame of colonies, with the appropriate growth and income boost to match - starting off without freeport until you have suitably built up (Same with AI core usage) If so, then maybe the system needs to be more clearly stated than just the little tooltip on what a freeport is.

Maybe the destroying-bases-that-are-making-the-attacks mechanic, needs to be done in a timely fashion (as in before they scale and apparently make things worse) and is also more important than people realize.

Maybe the mechanic of building defenses needs to match the success of each colony and is another major thing - go freeport after an orbital station and patrol fleets, maybe those before heavy industry and heavy production in general etc.

There appears to be alot of different cogs to the colony machine, the importance of which i feel just aren't pronounced well enough - either that or again it's the scaling and/or barrier to entry that needs to be worked on or people just need time to learn all the different aspects and effects of the different mechanics, to learn the good ol fashioned way how they work and should be used together.

But if say you only build colonies mid/late (regardless of your anxiety to want to make a start early and not miss out on extra growth/income :p), don't free port until maybe growth 5 or so, have built defenses before starting production in earnest, have a good sized fleet and regularly wipe pirate and luddic bases, while also not using AI straight away - i bet it's a whole different ball game.

Is it the most efficient? Not near as much as throwing down 3 colonies early, jacking them with AI and going freeport, but then look what happens :p Hell maybe the colony system is as open ended as the rest of the game - there are tools that increase income and attacks, and ones that increase defense and it's up to you how you want to utilize them, it's up to you how much of a challenge you can handle - how much risk for reward as there is no set path to these individual mechanics.

Maybe some people just aren't matching their defensive options to their income/attack ones suitably yet.

Either way I bet they're already well aware of the current situation, peoples current experiences and have already started making any changes needed, but which won't be in until next patch - the only problem being that apparently the devs behind this game choose to mostly drop a major patch once a year. (Correct me if i'm wrong.)



« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 02:26:54 AM by Whiskiz »
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Paul_Kauphart

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2019, 07:20:45 AM »

I built my first colony in a system I haad my eyes on, but not because I felt ready. After one of my rounds of exploration, I had found myself without enough fuel to get back to the core, but realizing I could get to one of the most interesting planet I had found with a little bit of fuel to spare. So I colonized it and droped most of my fleet except a few tankers to get back to the core and buy fuel.

After that, I figured I may as well use it. I started with defense, a waystation and a farming industry (moderate). Dropped alphas on the military base and space station, betas and gammas everywhere else.
For the longuest time, I only had to deal with pirates (easily dealt by a few defense unless you let the base grow too much) and the occasionnal ai inspection (cheap to bribe in the beginning). With the additionnal income and availlable supplies, I could afford a bigger fleet and started going after the big bounties and base destroying missions, and I would invest all that money into upgrading colony defenses and building a sizable money stash.

When I felt ready, I dumped that money in two more colonies, along with defenses and all manners of industries, and all of a sudden I was overflowing with cash and all the core expeditions where crashing against my defenses without doing much.

So I  feel it's very possible to enjoy the colony system early on, if you keep your growth in check and keep a low profile, until you have the ressources to defend them reliably. The only thing  you will have to deal with no matter what are pirates, but their bases are super easy to deal with with a few reaper torpedoes provided you don't let them grow.
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Megas

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2019, 07:23:20 AM »

@ Whizkid:  Think of how named bounties scale (which I think is too fast).  At one moment, player does fine, then all of sudden, they spike and become too hard until player catches up much later, if he catches up.  I suspect expeditions are the same way.  First expeditions may be doable with a mid-game fleet (they are on par with a 150k-200k bounty), but they will eventually peak at multiple ten capital death fleets (350k+ bounty), possibly sooner than you can deal with unless you were already at endgame.

I consider early game when player is driving frigates and destroyers, or maybe starter Apogee, and simply neither has the crew to build his first colony nor the money to build the bare necessities (orbital station, waystation, hq).  I consider the game starts midgame when player can afford a cruiser and can barely afford to build his first colony.  I consider endgame when player is powerful enough to destroy any single fleet, including ten capital deathball, without much difficulty.  At that point, I consider the game won.  The ideal time to build a colony is endgame when player can destroy any single fleet, 350k+ bounty or equivalent, without much difficulty, but as I just wrote, the game is basically won by then.  If I want a colony before I win the game, I need to build it early and do everything to avoid expeditions, which is not very obvious.

I would not use Free Port until my colonies are ready to deal with expeditions from major factions.  Eventually, colony will need Free Port just to have decent population growth after colony reaches size 5 or 6.  Free Port is nearly half of all possible population growth bonuses.
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Whiskiz

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Re: Colonies Cause World Wars
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2019, 07:53:41 AM »

@ Whizkid:  Think of how named bounties scale (which I think is too fast).  At one moment, player does fine, then all of sudden, they spike and become too hard until player catches up much later, if he catches up.  I suspect expeditions are the same way.  First expeditions may be doable with a mid-game fleet (they are on par with a 150k-200k bounty), but they will eventually peak at multiple ten capital death fleets (350k+ bounty), possibly sooner than you can deal with unless you were already at endgame.

I consider early game when player is driving frigates and destroyers, or maybe starter Apogee, and simply neither has the crew to build his first colony nor the money to build the bare necessities (orbital station, waystation, hq).  I consider the game starts midgame when player can afford a cruiser and can barely afford to build his first colony.  I consider endgame when player is powerful enough to destroy any single fleet, including ten capital deathball, without much difficulty.  At that point, I consider the game won.  The ideal time to build a colony is endgame when player can destroy any single fleet, 350k+ bounty or equivalent, without much difficulty, but as I just wrote, the game is basically won by then.  If I want a colony before I win the game, I need to build it early and do everything to avoid expeditions, which is not very obvious.

I would not use Free Port until my colonies are ready to deal with expeditions from major factions.  Eventually, colony will need Free Port just to have decent population growth after colony reaches size 5 or 6.  Free Port is nearly half of all possible population growth bonuses.

Have you ever considered the option that maybe colonies and world (galactic) war are supposed to be the next step from that win state end game? Which would explain the scaling. You see mid, early game and end game as that and "you would prefer" to engage with it earlier, but maybe it's scaled perfectly for its intention and you're trying to force it into your opinion of how and when it should be engaged with.

I remember seeing somewhere Alex saying Colonies are supposed to be the answer to getting the invincible end game death fleet, rolling things and "winning" state.

Sure it's cool to interact with it earlier, but imo it'd be even better if it became the end game - if the end game became more than super l33t death ball with Paragon and you entering that stage of having "won" - with more to do, more challenges to overcome and more of an excuse to keep playing.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 08:01:20 AM by Whiskiz »
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