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Author Topic: Skills and Story Points  (Read 91048 times)

Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2019, 04:47:26 PM »

Quickly hopping in to say as a long-time Starsector owner that's only really played one or two campaigns, changing things to a skill tree is going to make leveling up a lot easier to swallow, and so I hope that's the same for most newer players, too. Thank you!

Cool - thank you for sharing your perspective.

(I guess I should also chime in with the nitpick that the name "Story Points" also confused me, given that they sound like something "earned in the story", rather than as a meta-currency you can "spend to affect the story". I'm not losing sleep over it, though. Eclipse Points, maybe? Potential Points? Overclock Points? I'll stop. ^_^;)

Haha :) Welcome to the forum!
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Cosmitz

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2019, 05:05:02 PM »

I'm excited about story points, it definitely brings that 'smoothness' to the few rough spots here and there and it's an investment in a persistent experience that's unique to each playthrough. There's a lot to be said here, but all of it is good. As a fan of the FATE game systems, where players get to craft their stories by using 'perks' which are freeform attributes people attach to their character, and then use FATE points to make that perk have outstanding effects which are entirely contextual, i appreciate this weird mesh of 'hard' gameplay and 'soft' storytelling. However, i will say that maybe changing the name somewhat to reflect more their actual in-game-mechanics altering effects might help. "Starfarer Points"? :)

About the skills system... eh. The point of choice paralysis was a real issue, and that got entirely solved. A secondary problem was that of how it felt you always could get just 90% of the skills you wanted, three-four points just out of reach that made the 'build' feel flawed. It isn't about getting a 'perfect' build per se, it's about either allowing the 100% or make it so there can be no sense in chasing that 'perfect' build since there never are enough skill points to get what you want, just 50-60%ish. I'm not sure how this fares now, since i need to see the actual layout before making a comment, but i can see a flaw in 'getting to the last tier, just so i can pick the other 2nd tier skill' which may lead to a feeling of needing to 'waste' skill points to unlock the other thing you want. There's also something to be said about how the game may feel slightly less in-depth, but in full retrospect, very few skills you only took 'a level or two of', so i guess clumping all the effects together may make some sense (and i assume some were shuffled around too or new ones instated). I'm also glad about reassigning skillpoints, however the 'only some can be reassigned' kind of feels a bit like cheaping out. I understand why, but it feels more like under-the-hood issues than actual user experience issues. (also, if those are say tier 2-3 skills, would that prevent you from rolling back the entire tree? or will you just have a random skill in an empty tree)

It's also interesting how effect scaling and forcing downscaling in ship numbers which may offer a better choice than slapping extra ships to the tailend of the roster may loosen up the tension felt on the hard 30 ship cap, which so far is only really kept in check by supply/fuel usage and nothing else. However, this comes with the caveat that the gameplay experience itself has been balanced around these smaller numbers that you are tempted to deploy, and that we're not fighting enormous ship blobs in quick succession.

Moving on to 'building-in hullmods'. Well, uh. I need to see a guy about a Conquest. But i assume the 2 limit is WITH whatever it comes on included by default right?

Bonus experience sounds really great as a mechanic but it'll take a lot of interface and general gameplay communication to say that 'hey, this isn't just a hullmod upgrade, it's also a 75% bonus xp booster'. And i guess the 'quantity of experience for which it's boosted' stacks? Or else we'd end up in the 'i get the 100% xp boost going right now, so i'm going to wait out until i get another experience boost off of something'. I'm not super sure calling it percentages helps explain the 'quantity' it's valid for either. Heh, maybe just because i didn't quite get it in one sitting /is/ the problem. :P

Anywho.. remnant and derelict ships? Guess it was somewhat expected, also especially since they wouldn't really be fully player flyable (or configurable if i got that right?)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 05:12:55 PM by Cosmitz »
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Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2019, 05:17:19 PM »

However, i will say that maybe changing the name somewhat to reflect more their actual in-game-mechanics altering effects might help. "Starfarer Points"? :)

Hah! Hmm.

but i can see a flaw in 'getting to the last tier, just so i can pick the other 2nd tier skill' which may lead to a feeling of needing to 'waste' skill points to unlock the other thing you want.

I think the "waste" would be *so much* that it wouldn't be a viable option unless you also wanted the in-between skills. Plus, it helps that if you wanted something special, you probably were able to pick it up - since generally speaking it's a "generic vs specialization" choice, you'd probably be missing out on a generic.

(The tier 5 tech skills, though, are both crazy good... well, we'll see.)
 
I'm also glad about reassigning skillpoints, however the 'only some can be reassigned' kind of feels a bit like cheaping out. I understand why, but it feels more like under-the-hood issues than actual user experience issues.

Yeah, that's fair.

It's also interesting how effect scaling and forcing downscaling in ship numbers which may offer a better choice than slapping extra ships to the tailend of the roster may loosen up the tension felt on the hard 30 ship cap, which so far is only really kept in check by supply/fuel usage and nothing else. However, this comes with the caveat that the gameplay experience itself has been balanced around these smaller numbers that you are tempted to deploy, and that we're not fighting enormous ship blobs in quick succession.

Right, yeah, this is part of me wanting to tone down the current endgame fleets to something that feels more reasonable but still presents a challenge.

But i assume the 2 limit is WITH whatever it comes on included by default right?

Not sure what you mean. Like, the Conquest has Heavy Ballistics Integration, and that does *not* count for the 2 built in mods limit, if that's what you're asking.


Bonus experience sounds really great as a mechanic but it'll take a lot of interface and general gameplay communication to say that 'hey, this isn't just a hullmod upgrade, it's also a 75% bonus xp booster'. And i guess the 'quantity of experience for which it's boosted' stacks? Or else we'd end up in the 'i get the 100% xp boost going right now, so i'm going to wait out until i get another experience boost off of something'. I'm not super sure calling it percentages helps explain the 'quantity' it's valid for either. Heh, maybe just because i didn't quite get it in one sitting /is/ the problem. :P

It all stacks, yeah. There's lots of tooltips and UI elements explaining things; hopefully it'll work out.


Anywho.. remnant and derelict ships? Guess it was somewhat expected, also especially since they wouldn't really be fully player flyable (or configurable if i got that right?)

You can refit them, just can't pilot them.
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Cosmitz

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2019, 05:39:34 PM »

Right, yeah, this is part of me wanting to tone down the current endgame fleets to something that feels more reasonable but still presents a challenge.

I get that, there are a lot of moving parts there, but they will need to be tackled at one point since there's 'bones' like that sticking out through the experience. (i mean i see we still have the softcoded 'minimum fleet size to disengage' in one of the screenshots which i think is really an archaic thing by this point given how polished and in-depth the game is and how intricate its other systems are)

Not sure what you mean. Like, the Conquest has Heavy Ballistics Integration, and that does *not* count for the 2 built in mods limit, if that's what you're asking.

Yep, that was what i was asking. I mean, ITU and Hardened Shields/Heavy Armor built-in on a CQ aside from its own HBI seems.. slightly excessive, but i guess HBI is as much as part of the gamedesign of the ship itself, and anything player-"extra" would indeed go on top. Thanks, talked myself through it, sounds reasonable. :)

Otherwise... it's possible that people might still be doing Combat fleets; it's not that Combat's been nerfed to death (although there are a few things that aren't quite as useful as others) it's that there's no global power-boost.

I think this ties in more to what the endgame has creeped and bloated itself to. Throw the current skill tree back to when all we had was Corvus and the single Defence Fleet was the biggest thing around, and buffing a single ship to godlike abilities would have a much bigger impact than facing four consecutive waves of top-tier remnant battleships does now.

The player's "OP" ship could have a more measureable and direct impact on the general campaign map than it can today, and that's where the feeling of 'combat is underpowered' comes from i'd say, since you want powerful /fleets/ now, getting 5% out of every 20-30 ships in your fleet, instead of 50% out of your single ship.

I still do Combat but i do force myself to not really do 'endgame' content since that's just where i don't have fun anymore, if we're just crashing ships into eachother fighting off 5% boosts with other 5% boosts, it feels la lot more like Gratuitous Space Battles than it does Starsector.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 05:52:19 PM by Cosmitz »
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Megas

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2019, 05:57:19 PM »

Anything to reduce the size of endgame fights is good.  It is annoying slogging mostly through ten capital and more big ship fleets at the end of the game, especially when I can only deploy three to five ships and play SuperMelee battles in Starsector instead of Star Control 2, and I need to "edge-camp" to retreat ships quickly after they run out of peak performance.

Loadout Design 3 is practically worth a free hullmod.  Getting up to two built-ins after losing LD3 should not be excessive, especially when some ships are still starved for OP despite having +10% OP from LD3.  That is a net gain of one for ships with green points (and a net loss of one for ships that do not get the story treatment).

I try to get Combat skills just because I do not like being weaker than a level 20 officer, but the only way I can do that is to abandon Industry and fully embrace Alpha-run colony abuse.  (If I get colony skills myself plus the other obligatory fleetwide and campaign skills, I do not have enough points left to match my officers.)
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Eji1700

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2019, 06:12:03 PM »

One possible problem with relying on "Story Points" to power-up ships is it makes losing them in combat painful.  If you really want to keep the ship, that means some form of guaranteed recovery (like Reinforced Bulkheads), and even if you do keep it, it will take (D) mods.  If player does not want to pay huge restoration costs, that means much reloading in a difficult fight much like pre-0.8 games.

Hmm - one thought is to make losing ships with perma-mods give you bonus XP. Sort of like how losing ships used to do, but this time not something you'd really want to do on purpose.



I'd like to throw out there that maybe this is a good time to reassess the ship and weapon economy?

My understanding is that ships and weapons sell for near dirt cheap because otherwise it'd be too easy to have players play in an unfun manner where they farm ships and weapons, but-

1. This just leads to players often with an obnoxiously large weapon stockpile and rapid fire clicking through the ship recovery screen 9/10 times. 

2. There was a similar rule for trade if I recall, but that system has been reworked to be more intuitive (it makes sense that trading can make you money) and enjoyable (it's not something that's super easy to break and it has some depth).

I really feel that it'd make a lot more sense if weapons beyond the standard affair were much less likely to salvage (due to being more complicated devices) along with enemy ships in general rarely being salvageable (they aren't yours, you don't know the small tweaks their crew made, so it's harder to salvage, irregardless of if it's a common or advanced ship).

Normal players can get most of their Weaponry/Ships through the usual method-  Shops for basics, black market/commissions/exploration/colonies for exotics

Players that want to specialize in salvage can dedicate skills, hull mods, ships (salvage gantry anyone?), and maybe even items (marines?  "Engineers?") to the process. 

With ships being more rare to come by, they can serve as more serious rewards, and the recovery screen is now potentially interesting since even if you don't want a pirate carrier, it can help cover the supply cost of the battle.

It could also mean that dumping your weaponry for cash is a viable solution to short term income problems, or even another way to cover the cost of a battle, rather than just "flat supplies".  Hell maybe even a "focus on supplies, or recovery more weaponry" option at the salvage screen.  Either way it should help stop the hoarders armory that develops fast and eventually winds up just sitting on the colony (and I still think a "store all weapons" button would be useful either way).
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xenoargh

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2019, 07:06:19 PM »

I've been working on something to address the "ship economy".

Basic rules:  the bigger the ship, the less-likely you are to be able to salvage the hulls.  No more giant piles of freebie (D) cruisers, etc.

Hulls past Destroyer cost a lot more.  A Cruiser is ~1 million.  A Capital is tens of millions.

The results, while imperfect (I still haven't altered the dialog code to really get it enforced as stringently as I wanted, but it's still a low chance) works really well. 

Capturing something big feels like a major victory.  Players will spend more time saving up their money (and have something to actually spend it on, in late game).  To get a Capital before end-game money, players will have to fight really difficult boss-battles and hope for salvage.  It really makes building a fleet pretty interesting, to figure out how you'll defeat multi-capital fleets with nothing heavier than Destroyers and a few Cruisers.

Selling a (D) capital ship you cannot afford to Restore doesn't feel like defeat, because you'll get enough cash to build up your small ships.  Once you get a large ship, you feel like it's a mega-important asset you need to keep alive (which largely makes up for it being so powerful; in Iron Mode, you wouldn't want to throw a Battlecruiser into random fights with an AI, where it might eat some Reapers).

I've thought about doing the same with weapons, but there are real issues with that.  First off, lack of weapons was a thing (and is sometimes a thing now, if you don't understand the game mechanics very well), and it's un-fun to have ships you cannot arm.  That and generally, if weapons are well-balanced vs. each other, the need's a lot less, because you can make do and nobody has some Massively Overpowered Thing you need.
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Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2019, 07:18:10 PM »

I'd like to throw out there that maybe this is a good time to reassess the ship and weapon economy?

Spoiler
My understanding is that ships and weapons sell for near dirt cheap because otherwise it'd be too easy to have players play in an unfun manner where they farm ships and weapons, but-

1. This just leads to players often with an obnoxiously large weapon stockpile and rapid fire clicking through the ship recovery screen 9/10 times. 

2. There was a similar rule for trade if I recall, but that system has been reworked to be more intuitive (it makes sense that trading can make you money) and enjoyable (it's not something that's super easy to break and it has some depth).

I really feel that it'd make a lot more sense if weapons beyond the standard affair were much less likely to salvage (due to being more complicated devices) along with enemy ships in general rarely being salvageable (they aren't yours, you don't know the small tweaks their crew made, so it's harder to salvage, irregardless of if it's a common or advanced ship).

Normal players can get most of their Weaponry/Ships through the usual method-  Shops for basics, black market/commissions/exploration/colonies for exotics

Players that want to specialize in salvage can dedicate skills, hull mods, ships (salvage gantry anyone?), and maybe even items (marines?  "Engineers?") to the process. 

With ships being more rare to come by, they can serve as more serious rewards, and the recovery screen is now potentially interesting since even if you don't want a pirate carrier, it can help cover the supply cost of the battle.

It could also mean that dumping your weaponry for cash is a viable solution to short term income problems, or even another way to cover the cost of a battle, rather than just "flat supplies".  Hell maybe even a "focus on supplies, or recovery more weaponry" option at the salvage screen.  Either way it should help stop the hoarders armory that develops fast and eventually winds up just sitting on the colony (and I still think a "store all weapons" button would be useful either way).
[close]

That's a bit off-topic for this thread (or, at least, I'm not seeing the connection). That said, I'm not sure if there's a good reason for making weapons cheap to sell aside from consistency - but I'm also not sure that making them more expensive would do enough to encourage you to sell them. It might, though; definitely worth thinking about and I'm not opposed to the idea - but, yeah, probably a topic for another thread.
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kazi

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2019, 07:34:21 PM »

Re "story points": You shouldn't get these from leveling up. Why not reward them for completing actual "stories"? Level ups are fine but seem a little timegate-y, esp. at later levels once diminishing returns kick in. You should be rewarding these special points for special events or milestones, to encourage the player to get out of their comfort zone and do activities they might not otherwise do.

For instance:

* Launching your first saturation bombardment against a planet.
* Decivilizing a planet.
* Abandoning a colony.
* Going to war with someone besides pirates and pathers
* Waking up some cryosleepers.
* Running out of fuel and having to make a distress call.
* Becoming a pirate lord. (Currently near-impossible unless you want to grind pirate rep for hours and somehow never get attacked by accident and have to kill them.)
* Finding out about the Luddic Church's free lunches.
* etc., etc.

I find Starsector interesting, but a lot of the really awesome content sometimes never gets done because the player isn't comfortable with it or sees things as high risk (Starsector is difficult and that's great, but it deters you from taking risks most of the time because of how punishing a loss can be). I realized the other day that I simply don't do certain activities just because I want to keep all the factions happy or the high-risk stuff just isn't worth it (I have yet to bombard a planet... no reason to do so as far as I can tell...). Was scrolling through rules.csv the other day and there was a ton of great stuff that I've just never seen because I always end playing the same way. You should only earn "story points" from completing activities that advance your personal story or get you out of your comfort zone and doing something really cool.

Rewards on level up == participation trophies. Why not reward the player for doing all of the cool stuff?

(Also I would really like more story-based content and quests. Sue me.)

*edit - even better. Get rid of "levels" from XP entirely. You should only "level up" from completing milestones, not aimlessly grinding away at the same pirate bounties and exploration missions that give easy money.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 07:37:23 PM by kazi »
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xenoargh

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2019, 07:53:32 PM »

I agree with pretty much all of that.  But now I'll have to go read the "free lunches" bit, lol  ???
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R.U.A

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2019, 08:01:51 PM »

I'm really shocked...
I guess there would be debuffs for certain hullmods being permanant. There would be.
Edit: Else I think a new API is necessary.
Waiting for formal update. Currently no conclusion can be drawn.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 01:32:11 AM by R.U.A »
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Originem

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2019, 08:02:39 PM »

what the hell is "high scatter amplifier"?beam weapon could deal hard flux??
So what's the ratio?5%?10%?
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Dostya

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2019, 08:21:43 PM »

I really like this, both for the general revamp to be less of an intimidatingly huge pile of skills for newbies as well as the loosening of skill permanency that'll allow someone to go with what's cool and good right now rather than worrying about what happens in twelve hours. I also like the idea of making small fleets both in terms of ship count and size more attractive and rewarding. I've said it before, but it bears repeating that Starsector is at its best when you've gotten a low-to-middling weight fleet together and are adventuring around the map. However, with the current endgame meta pulling hard into fielding walls of cruisers and capitals to deal with AI fleet walls and giant doom stations, those cool skills are going to have a pretty hard expiration as the player moves into colonies.

I have fun with Starsector's endgame, both vanilla and modded in shaping the sector as a whole, but as even the bounties start a terminal climb into the heavy metal small fleets become completely nonviable even to generally fool around with. Have you got any plans to lessen the push towards a wall of battle in lategame?
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Kanil

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2019, 08:22:37 PM »

Given that story points can be used to salvage ships and retrain officers (making finding the correct ships/officers less frustrating), could they possibly be used to cause ships to spawn on the black market? Possibly with some limitations, d-mods, or just straight up more expensive than normal if it needs to be balanced.

It seems thematically workable at least, you spend your story point to find a guy who knows a guy who'll sell you a Medusa this time next month.
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Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2019, 08:55:59 PM »

Re "story points": You shouldn't get these from leveling up. Why not reward them for completing actual "stories"? Level ups are fine but seem a little timegate-y, esp. at later levels once diminishing returns kick in. You should be rewarding these special points for special events or milestones, to encourage the player to get out of their comfort zone and do activities they might not otherwise do.

Spoiler
For instance:

* Launching your first saturation bombardment against a planet.
* Decivilizing a planet.
* Abandoning a colony.
* Going to war with someone besides pirates and pathers
* Waking up some cryosleepers.
* Running out of fuel and having to make a distress call.
* Becoming a pirate lord. (Currently near-impossible unless you want to grind pirate rep for hours and somehow never get attacked by accident and have to kill them.)
* Finding out about the Luddic Church's free lunches.
* etc., etc.

I find Starsector interesting, but a lot of the really awesome content sometimes never gets done because the player isn't comfortable with it or sees things as high risk (Starsector is difficult and that's great, but it deters you from taking risks most of the time because of how punishing a loss can be). I realized the other day that I simply don't do certain activities just because I want to keep all the factions happy or the high-risk stuff just isn't worth it (I have yet to bombard a planet... no reason to do so as far as I can tell...). Was scrolling through rules.csv the other day and there was a ton of great stuff that I've just never seen because I always end playing the same way. You should only earn "story points" from completing activities that advance your personal story or get you out of your comfort zone and doing something really cool.

Rewards on level up == participation trophies. Why not reward the player for doing all of the cool stuff?

*edit - even better. Get rid of "levels" from XP entirely. You should only "level up" from completing milestones, not aimlessly grinding away at the same pirate bounties and exploration missions that give easy money.
[close]

I could see giving a point or two as a reward from certain missions, but basing getting points entirely on that sort of thing doesn't seem like a good idea. It's like taking the unfortunate aspects of achievements (encouraging the player doing weird or boring things) and them mixing gameplay rewards into it. "Let me go bombard a planet so I can build Heavy Armor into my Onslaught" or "guess it's time to grind pirate rep to get the last point" doesn't seem like where we want to go. Besides, limited points wouldn't work, anyway - you'd always hoard them for the "best" uses. Bonus XP - and the points being unlimited in the long run - is an absolutely key component here.


(Also I would really like more story-based content and quests. Sue me.)

Same!


what the hell is "high scatter amplifier"?beam weapon could deal hard flux??
So what's the ratio?5%?10%?

It's 100% hard flux, but it also halves beam weapon range - as a multiplier! - so they stop being long-range weapons.


I really like this, both for the general revamp to be less of an intimidatingly huge pile of skills for newbies as well as the loosening of skill permanency that'll allow someone to go with what's cool and good right now rather than worrying about what happens in twelve hours. I also like the idea of making small fleets both in terms of ship count and size more attractive and rewarding. I've said it before, but it bears repeating that Starsector is at its best when you've gotten a low-to-middling weight fleet together and are adventuring around the map. However, with the current endgame meta pulling hard into fielding walls of cruisers and capitals to deal with AI fleet walls and giant doom stations, those cool skills are going to have a pretty hard expiration as the player moves into colonies.

I have fun with Starsector's endgame, both vanilla and modded in shaping the sector as a whole, but as even the bounties start a terminal climb into the heavy metal small fleets become completely nonviable even to generally fool around with. Have you got any plans to lessen the push towards a wall of battle in lategame?

Yes, for sure. It's essentially part of the skill revamp, at least the way I'm thinking about it - some aspects of it also set up AI fleets for being more powerful without turning into walls of capital ships.


Given that story points can be used to salvage ships and retrain officers (making finding the correct ships/officers less frustrating), could they possibly be used to cause ships to spawn on the black market? Possibly with some limitations, d-mods, or just straight up more expensive than normal if it needs to be balanced.

It seems thematically workable at least, you spend your story point to find a guy who knows a guy who'll sell you a Medusa this time next month.

Yeah, it could work! I've got a TODO item for looking into something similar - where you might spend a story point to have someone find a hull or weapon for you. Well, "find", more like "spawn it somewhere halfway sensible and tell you about it".

The tricky part is actually the UI - how would "specify a ship or a weapon" look when there's 100+ to choose from, when you factor in mods? Half-thinking about it being some sort of "command line query" interface and the action being presented as doing some sort of hacking of logistics reports or some such. But having a fun UI for that sort of thing could be more work than it's worth.
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