Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: New music for Galatia Academy (06/12/24)

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.  (Read 2992 times)

Morgan Rue

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile

IR Pulse is very hard for smaller ships to mount effectively, as it is quite often too much gun for their flux grids to support. It is similar to the Light Assault Gun in this way. However, unlike the Light Assault Gun, the IR Pulse has no less expensive and intensive alternative.

There is no cheap anti-ship small energy weapon. Even something like a terrible 3 OP 400 range 50 kinetic dps beam would serve well enough. Or a 60 energy dps projectile weapon.
I want to stop using entirely Ion Cannons on my Wolves.
Logged
Dauntless.

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1897
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2019, 12:22:20 AM »

You can always just use fewer guns. Its generally better to use fewer biger guns than more smaller ones. The Light Mortar gets away with it by having a lot worse shot speed and accuracy. Something that is less acceptable thematically  on energy platforms
Logged

Shad

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2019, 03:37:06 AM »

SWP has the miniblaster. An ideal weapon for people who like to fill thery single free slot with a weapon, but don't want the ship to have flux problems. It's flux efficient and only cost 1 OP. Just don't expect it to do much damage.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12233
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2019, 05:35:06 AM »

You can always just use fewer guns. Its generally better to use fewer biger guns than more smaller ones. The Light Mortar gets away with it by having a lot worse shot speed and accuracy. Something that is less acceptable thematically  on energy platforms
Light Mortar is the exception.  Compared to Light Assault Gun, two Light Mortars cost 1 less OP and more flux efficient than one Light Assault Gun.  Ever since its range upgraded to 600, I use Light Mortars much more than Light Assault Gun.

Energy needs a similar weapon, perhaps the high delay ion weapon Claws use?  The high-delay weapon Lux use might work, although IR Pulse Laser itself is underwhelming except when spammed by capitals.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1897
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2019, 10:06:24 AM »

Light mortar pays for it in accuracy and shot speed(and recoil). Things that are harder to justify thematically on energy weapons.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12233
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2019, 10:44:22 AM »

Light Assault Gun is not very accurate either, so Light Mortar is roughly even there.  Shot speed is a bit slow, but mostly irrelevant aside from PD (which I do not use light HE for; Vulcan gets used for PD role).  The biggest drawback I see is two Light Mortars do not have as much DPS as one Light Assault Gun, but the cheaper OP and flux costs more than make up for that if the ship has enough mounts.

P.S.  In the context of energy weapons, high-delay versions used by fighters would work, at least the Claw's Ion Cannon.  Normal IR Pulse Laser is already a bit underwhelming, so a high-delay version probably would not help so much (but maybe better than Mining Laser).  Not sure what can be done for energy since most energy is mediocre to begin with.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 12:09:16 PM by Megas »
Logged

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1453
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2019, 12:30:53 PM »

It also needs to be distinct enough. Adding a high delay IR Pulse with the same stats otherwise would be redundant.

I'm not missing a cheaper OP weapon personally. There are some to choose from. Hell, you can try to use the PD & mining lasers offensively. I would like a slower firing, higher damage weapon compared to IR Pulse. I would also like to see IR Pulse get the same range as LAG and Dual AC.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12233
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2019, 12:48:03 PM »

The fighters have the high-delay weapons, so they are already in the game, just not available for proper ships.

PD Laser is not cheap enough, and not much help in attacking things.  (It is passable in its intended role of PD.)  Mining Laser is nearly useless except as anti-missile, but only after it has been buffed much by hullmods and maybe Advanced Countermeasures 3.  If those boosters are unavailable, then Mining Laser on a ship is too underpowered to be of any use.  (Borer spam can kill few early-game wimps, but not much else.)

Aside, Mining Pods are occasionally useful, but mostly as a meat shield or decoy that blocks a few shots, not their lasers for doing anything beyond drawing aggro.

Quote
I would like a slower firing, higher damage weapon compared to IR Pulse.
This is Antimatter Blaster.  However, it is very expensive and probably extreme at the other end.  Not very practical except as strike weapon for Harbinger to use, or as shield breaker on Scarab and maybe few other ships.

If IR Pulse Laser had 600 range, I would love Pulse Laser to get 700 range.  In the early days, Ion Cannon had 600 range, and I used that weapon over IR Pulse Laser just for the added range.  Although back then, Flux Supercharge was a feature, and IR Pulse Laser only did 100 DPS instead of 140+, while Ion Cannon was only half that instead of less.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 12:59:38 PM by Megas »
Logged

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1453
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2019, 01:45:19 PM »

When I mean slower firing, higher damage, I'm talking about a reasonable difference of half the speed, 1.3x the damage or something like that. The Antimatter Blaster is so different, it's a sledgehammer compared to the IR Pulse's 'death by a million toothpicks'.

Both Pulse Laser variants getting a little range bump would be fine with me.
Logged

Morgan Rue

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2019, 02:36:58 PM »

It doesn't have to be anything like an IR pulse laser. It could just be an efficient, short ranged beam. Like a PD Laser but slightly higher DPS or slightly less OP to mount.
Or it could be a mediocre projectile weapon with light ion damage. Or a slow firing high damage thing. The form it takes really doesn't matter, so long as it is there.

The point of having small energy weapons is the utility they offer, things like point defense or ion damage. One IR Pulse is more than half a Wolf's maximum dissipation. If I mount an IR Pulse, I either can't use utility weapons or can't use missiles, both of which are very good to have. Or I run too hot to effectively fight similar ships.

PD Lasers might effectively fill this role already, I am not certain.
Logged
Dauntless.

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12233
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2019, 03:37:08 PM »

PD Lasers, which are 4 OP like Vulcans and not exactly cheap on the level as Light Mortar, lack the range without Advanced Optics.  With Advanced Optics, their range may be long enough, but by then, their effective OP cost jumps to something closer to LR PD or even Burst PD.  This is why Mining Laser is not cheap, despite OP cost of 2.  By the time you give it IPDAI, Turret Gyros, and maybe Advanced Optics, it gets expensive just to match more expensive beam PD that is better out-of-the-box.

I would like 2 OP or 3 OP energy weapon that is good out-of-the-box, like ballistic's Light Mortar or missile's Hammer rack.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7365
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2019, 03:50:33 PM »

While I do agree there isn't a weapon in the category you are describing, I think the issue is less the availability of a low OP energy weapon and more the fact that Wolves have terrible flux dissipation for an energy based ship. With maxed vents they cannot sustainably mount a Pulse Laser, but also have very few other options for getting through shields.

IR pulse is a remarkably inferior weapon: its penetration is barely passable against frigate armor and ineffective against anything larger. That relegates it to an anti-shield role, but compared to the worst kinetic its terrible. It offers some utility against fighters because its decently accurate, but I'd rather have PD lasers for the same task, with their lower DPS made up for by higher time on target.

I find PD lasers to be effective enough without any hullmods: enough to stop a few missiles on a mobile ship and +50% damage against fighters compared to LRPD (fighters stay in range most of the time).
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12233
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2019, 03:59:23 PM »

PD Lasers for anti-missile and the like is alright.  But if I want to use PD Laser as a ghetto tac-laser (maybe because I did not find enough LR PD), I want Advanced Optics to extend range long enough to match ranges of my assault weapons and attack ships.

IR Pulse Lasers are decent IPDAI PD (much better stopping power than beams) or good for death-by-a-thousand-cuts when a bunch are mounted on capitals.  Odyssey can get away with using HILs if it has a lot of IR Pulse Lasers to put hard flux on shields.  I have occasionally used IPDAI IR Pulse Lasers on Conquest or Paragon if I do not have enough small burst PD.
Logged

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1453
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2019, 05:20:33 PM »

Where are you getting that IR Pulse is bad? IR Pulse, LAG and Dual AC are the big (or rather small) three weapons to compare. Same flux efficiency, roughly similar DPS. Different firing patterns. IR Pulse loses 100 range and gains a lot of accuracy. Dual AC has 50x2 kinetic, LAG has 40 HE, IR Pulse has 50 energy. The big brother Pulse Laser 'only' has 100. If IR Pulse is bad, all energy weapons with low shot damage are bad.

You have to tolerate kinetic guns firing on armor just as you have to tolerate LAG hitting shield. Both do their part but could be considered 'wasted effort' compared to an all-HE or all-kinetic loadout. Since weapons rarely stand on their own just as ships rarely fight 1v1, I find this sort of clinical separation to not do the gun justice.

Maybe this stems from me having recently switched to IR Pulse for a trial run. They make fine weapons. They work well with IPDAI and supplement a Railgun & Annihilator loadout almost perfectly.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 05:24:52 PM by Schwartz »
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7365
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: High tech frigates could use a lighter anti-ship small energy.
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2019, 07:13:09 PM »

Tldr: IR Pulse is acceptable, but worse than other options, vs frigates and very bad against anything larger.

The issue is that while dual autocannons are bad against armor, and light assault guns are bad against shields, IR Pulse is 'meh' against shields, 'meh' against frigate armor, and 'really bad' against destroyer+ armor. It has no strong points.

The "standard" comparison would be 1 dual autocannon and 1 light assault gun vs 2 IR Pulse. 303 flux for ballistics, 304 flux for IR pulse, so same power draw. Against shields, it is 366 DPS vs 304 DPS. Not terrible for IR Pulse, but 20% less.

For armor, lets say 250: less than a Lasher, more than  Wolf. The ballistic is doing 320*80/(80+250) + 71.5*25/(25+250) ~ 84 at full armor, 138 at half armor. The energy is doing 304*50/(250+50) ~ 51 at full armor, 87 at half armor.

In both cases, the IR Pulse are outclassed by a significant margin. Against armor in particular it is no contest, and this is frigate armor: the heavier the armor, the worse it gets until both are at the minimum damage threshold, where its something like 39 for ballistics vs 30 for energy, which is still bad for energy. The IR Pulse encounters this limit at 500 armor and above, while the ballistics encounter it at 800 and above (the kinetic at 250, but it is the minority contributor).

In addition to longer range, the ballistic also has the option of switching weapon groups on or off to improve efficiency: they can "overgun" the ship and attempt to run kinetics vs shields and HE vs armor. It doesn't always work as the AI is decent at shield flickering, but in general a player can reduce their flux usage by managing weapon groups vs appropriate targets. The IR Pulse cannot do that, so suffers by comparison in efficiency.

Now, granted, light dual autocannons are horribly innacurate, and against nimble frigate targets can and will miss shots. But the light dual autocannon is a notoriously "meh" gun: its the Railgun that the IR Pulse really has to compete with, and Railguns are hilariously good. So good, in fact, that the Pirate Shrike is considered by a lot of players to be better than the normal shrike because it can mount one, despite also losing OP.


...
If IR Pulse is bad, all energy weapons with low shot damage are bad.
...

Honestly, yes: All energy weapons with low shot damage compared to their target's armor are bad unless they have some special factor. Pulse lasers have the special factor of DPS, coming in at 303 as opposed to the 214 of heavy autocannons, and their 100 damage per shot makes them acceptable against destroyer grade (~500) armor with the increased DPS taken into account. Vs destroyers, Pulse Lasers are good guns. Vs cruisers they struggle and vs capitals they are defeated by armor. Autopulse at 150 damage are a little weak vs cruiser grade armor, but they have a very strong alpha and good efficiency as bonuses. Plasma Cannons have enough damage per shot that, despite being 'scaled up pulse lasers' they remain great against every target.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2